Bullycide

[truethat]

So it's wrong to be different and you got what you deserved?

That's novel.

Not er necessarily. Rather, I stood out and was a weirdo and it annoyed people. Oh and btw all of my bullies apologized to me years later so sincerely. So I guess what I mean is that it is understandable and realistic to be picked on for being different.

Only when you can just accept that this is how groups operate do you not then take it personally. But again is it possible to sort of distance yourself from the action and recognize this is what some groups do and simply ride it out. The trauma comes from internalizing the behavior of others. IMHO

 

[mortimer]

I agree bullying can be a problem, even a deadly one. But what to do about it? We can educate the kids we can get through to, and we can supervise as much as possible, but can we ultimately supervise our kids, and other kids, 24x7 to make sure it doesn't happen? What's being suggested to eliminate bullying?

 

[Mister Earl]

Going to have to agree with Sadhatter and Mr. Purple. I was also picked on by a rather extreme amount. I didn't get much help or sympathy from anyone. Advice? None. I had to figure out the puzzle myself. And when I did, the results were near instant. I'll try to explain...

We had this one bully in school. One of those rare genetic wonders that makes them a foot taller than everyone else their age. I was his target for quite some time. I'd get beaten up from time to time. One day I got sick of it, so I retaliated. I happened to be going down a stairwell, and he was right in front of me. I kicked him in the back of the knee and gave him a bit of a shove, sending him sprawling forward. I jumped on his back and rode him to the bottom like a toboggan. At the bottom I just started swinging like crazy. I did end up losing that fight, despite my early advantage. Pretty badly, actually. The next day I did it again. And lost. The day after that, I did it again and the fight was broken up by teachers. Still, I kept at it. Neither of us did any real permanent damage beyond some rather heavy bruising. Finally he asked me (summarizing, and it was a loong time ago so my memory isn't perfect) what it would take for me to leave him alone. I told him "Don't talk to me, don't talk about me, don't even look at me. As far as you're concerned, I don't exist. As far as I'm concerned, you don't exist. Deal?" Deal was set. After that I didn't get bothered by anybody.

So yeah, I'll have to agree with those two. In a perfect world, none of this would be necessary. But face it. People are cruel. That's not going to change in the near and likely the long term. People are territorial and prefer to be dominant. You're always going to have spats and brawls, and I don't think that there's going to be a realistic way of changing that. I think telling kids to always walk away and never fight is doing them a disservice. What happens is, you give the bully an easy target that never defends themselves to rack up points against, and because it's easy and costs them nothing, they'll continue to due so, getting more and more daring in the doing of it. I've seen this first hand. The only reliable way I've seen for stopping bullying is to make the "points" not worthwhile. Resistance, basically. In my example, that bully could have beaten me up easily at any time. We didn't fight anymore after that simply because I was no longer worthwhile. He went after easier targets, some of which took my example.

When I get around to having children, I plan on teaching them to defend themselves. Not karate or martial arts or anything like that. I don't see that as necessary. It's not even really about winning the fight. It's just about making the fights costly enough to where they're no longer worth it to the bully(ies).

 

[truethat]

Forgive me if I'm wrong here, but are you essentially saying based on the sum of your posts, that because I was already mentally unstable, I would have snapped in the same way anyway, and that it's understandable that I was bullied?

In a way yes. But as a sort of curious question. I'm not stating it outright. I'm not saying you deserved to be bullied. But rather if a person has an odd personality does it sort of touch on the more animalistic part of the group and make you a target. If that is the case isn't it more realistic to recognize that you have an odd personality and that's part of what is causing it. Then understanding that it's not YOU that is the problem, and that the group is responding in a typical manner. Instead of snapping because of the stress and confusion and hurt, learning to distance yourself from it and not taking it to heart. Not treating it as a truth but a pattern.

 

[Cainkane1]

As someone who was bullied ( when your a bisexual , punk rock, actor in a small town, kinda hard to get by. Not to mention that until about grade 11 or so i was pushing 300 pounds. ) as a kid the only advice i can give is advice that people today don't want to hear.

Fight, and fight dirty.

No one is around there friends 24/7, and no one has eyes in the back of their head. Your going to take some beatings, and your going to get into trouble, but after a few goes, and a few heads bounced off urinals, you present a risk, and simply out of a want for a lack of hassle you will be left more alone.

And fighting dirty doesn't mean, bring a knife, it doesn't mean beat someones skull to a pulp. Property damage was the motto of the punk group in my area. Someone harassing you in a car? Well, your a kid, more than likely it is their parents car, and more than likely they picked a spot where no one was around. There are many ways to shatter a windshield that can be carried around with a person. Touch up paint can be used to make a point to someone if you don't want to throw a punch, an open bottle quickly turns a pair of 200 dollar shoes into modern art. Eventually the parents are going to wonder why this keeps happening. And while you don't have power, they certainly do.

There is another option, to simply take the crap. If you don't want to deal with the blowback, and you don't want to deal with the trouble that you will get into, simply get by, high school isn't forever.

Personally, i would suggest a mixture of the two, be unpredictable. What i always did, and i came out of my teenage years with a minimum of scars, emotional or otherwise.

This whole " Defeat hate with love." mantra, is doing nothing more than taking the power the victims have away. Sure, we would all love to live in a world without violence, or retribution, but utopia is for Utopians. And , especially in high school, no one is a Utopian.

Fighting and fighting dirty is all well and good unless the victim is a head shorter than his or her tormentor or if there is one than one scumbag on you. There is no simple solution. Sometimes punks stick together and if you successfully fight one you have to fight another punk or a gang of punks.

 

[I Am The Scum]

I agree bullying can be a problem, even a deadly one. But what to do about it? We can educate the kids we can get through to, and we can supervise as much as possible, but can we ultimately supervise our kids, and other kids, 24x7 to make sure it doesn't happen? What's being suggested to eliminate bullying?

On a certain level, it's not nearly as complicated as people make it out to be.

Imagine I were to go up to one of my coworkers, push him around, and threaten him with great physical harm if he does not give me the money in his wallet. What is the proper response?

There may be some disagreement on just how far this coworkers retaliation (if any at all) would be justified. However, most everyone would agree that in this scenario, the aggressor needs to go to jail for assault and robbery, and he should be fired. It's obvious. You don't even need to give it a second thought.

Now, let's suppose an identical scenario takes place, except this time we're replacing adult coworkers with adolescent schoolmates. At this point, many people are confounded at the proper response. But why? Shouldn't the aggressor still go to jail (or some form specialized discipline), and shouldn't he still be removed from the environment he has damaged? Instead, many will argue that it is predominantly the role of the victim to rectify the situation. This is, of course, absurd. Why should we expect children, who are naturally so ill-equipped at handling life's problems on their own, to solve this one alone, and not have at their disposal the same tools that are available to our coworkers from before? That's the way adults do it. You know, in the real world?

That's the easy part. It's plainly obvious how backwards and compartmentalized our culture's attitude is towards the bullying problem. Naturally, you may be wondering how we change this attitude. For that question, however, I have no answers.

 

[3point14]

I agree bullying can be a problem, even a deadly one. But what to do about it? We can educate the kids we can get through to, and we can supervise as much as possible, but can we ultimately supervise our kids, and other kids, 24x7 to make sure it doesn't happen? What's being suggested to eliminate bullying?

Come down like a ton of bricks on the kids that do it and make their lives as miserable as you can within the confines of the law.

Seriously.

For some years after I left school I would have advocated, to any bullied kid, hiding behind a tree with a big stick and making a serious mess of the bullies kneecaps with said stick. A reputation as a total nutter will scare off most, I would have thought.

Yes, I realise that's unacceptable now, but I was miserable for five years of my life and shortly after that I had a difficult time thinking of it rationally.


According to some, as far as I can tell, I deserved it because I was small and sensitive and not quite the same as everyone else. That comment is one of the craziest I've read here (and it has some competition). I rather hope I@ve misinterpreted it.

 

[3point14]

Not er necessarily. Rather, I stood out and was a weirdo and it annoyed people. Oh and btw all of my bullies apologized to me years later so sincerely. So I guess what I mean is that it is understandable and realistic to be picked on for being different.

Only when you can just accept that this is how groups operate do you not then take it personally. But again is it possible to sort of distance yourself from the action and recognize this is what some groups do and simply ride it out. The trauma comes from internalizing the behavior of others. IMHO

No. I hate to flat out disagree with you, and maybe this is how you've rationalised it, but you're flat out wrong.

 

[Mister Earl]

Fighting and fighting dirty is all well and good unless the victim is a head shorter than his or her tormentor or if there is one than one scumbag on you. There is no simple solution. Sometimes punks stick together and if you successfully fight one you have to fight another punk or a gang of punks.

I've been in that situation, Cainkane. I've known others who were as well. The only thing I've ever seen work is resistance. You have to make the bullying costly enough to them to where they go for an easier target. I tried the other ways before fighting back. Doing nothing. Walking away. Informing teachers. In each of those instances, it only served to identify me as an easy target, and instead escalated things. Teachers are too busy and too few. A student cannot expect a staff of teachers of preventing bullying.

 

[Sledge]

I honestly think corporal punishment should be brought back for bullies. They don't respond to reason, and the only success I ever had dealing with bullies was to use physical violence. So beat them. Beat them hard in front of the whole school. Make it clear this will happen every time.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

In a way yes. But as a sort of curious question. I'm not stating it outright. I'm not saying you deserved to be bullied. But rather if a person has an odd personality does it sort of touch on the more animalistic part of the group and make you a target. If that is the case isn't it more realistic to recognize that you have an odd personality and that's part of what is causing it. Then understanding that it's not YOU that is the problem, and that the group is responding in a typical manner. Instead of snapping because of the stress and confusion and hurt, learning to distance yourself from it and not taking it to heart. Not treating it as a truth but a pattern.

So it's my fault I was bullied because I was weird? I didn't do anything on purpose, but hey, I exuded oddness and that makes the animalistic natures in them rise up so it isn't their fault either?

You're a sick, twisted and evil person.

 

[Varanid]

I was careful to explain my thoughts on handicapped/developmentally delayed kids being bullied above. Having said that....

There is an unpleasant fact at work here. Some kids aren't as kewel/popular/big as the others and will get picked on. Bet on it, it ain't gonna stop. It does happen with adults as well, it is just more subtle. It happens with our nearest relatives as well, so it is possibly very firmly entrenched.

Bullies like easy targets, don't be an easy target. Be a target that bites back. Sometimes adults aren't around, sometimes their methods don't work, sometimes the system fails. So what to do? Curl up in the fetal position and cry, or fight back (by whatever means)?

It isn't necessarily their ("outsider's") fault, but they should be prepared to deal with it. Self reliance is a crucial life skill imo, regardless of one's crosses to bear.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

I'm just going to pop in here and say I can't follow this thread, no matter how many times I've read it.

Personally, I think in these discussions people make too strict a bully/victim divide and only pay attention to the fighting aspect of bullying.

 

[Varanid]

snip... I guess what I mean is that it is understandable and realistic to be picked on for being different....
snip.

That is a true statement. It isn't reflective of an ideal world, but we can easily understand why some are picked on, and it is realistic to anticipate it happening.

Doesn't make it pretty, but it is true.

 

[3point14]

I was careful to explain my thoughts on handicapped/developmentally delayed kids being bullied above. Having said that....

There is an unpleasant fact at work here. Some kids aren't as kewel/popular/big as the others and will get picked on. Bet on it, it ain't gonna stop. It does happen with adults as well, it is just more subtle. It happens with our nearest relatives as well, so it is possibly very firmly entrenched.

Bullies like easy targets, don't be an easy target. Be a target that bites back. Sometimes adults aren't around, sometimes their methods don't work, sometimes the system fails. So what to do? Curl up in the fetal position and cry, or fight back (by whatever means)?

It isn't necessarily their ("outsider's") fault, but they should be prepared to deal with it. Self reliance is a crucial life skill imo, regardless of one's crosses to bear.

I'm very nearly with Mark here.


I was 15. I was tiny. All my attackers were about twice my bodyweight. I had zero chance of being able to fight back in any way, shape or form. Any attempts to fight back would have been utterly, utterly laughable. It is not the responsibility of the bullied in any way shape or form to deal with this situation. If I'd had my way I would not have been at school. I was required to be there, therefore it is the responsibility of those adults into whose care I had been placed to look after me. They didn't. They failed spectacularly. And I had no means of looking after myself. None. None at all.

Anyone trying to rationalise the situation with an 'it's human nature, deal with it' argument needs to take a serious look at themselves. It's human nature to do a lot of things, but we, as civilised human beings, overcome our base nature to seek higher things like empathy, understanding, co-operation, and not beating the crap out of someone for being different.

An acceptance of any one person's violence, physical or otherwise, towards another human being is a retrograde step back towards a less civilised time. Where children are concerned this counts double.

 

[Newtons Bit]

The biggest problem?
"You are just harassing my kid because he/she is (popular/a jock/big/ahead of the others)
he/she would never do any of those things. So leave him/her alone, or I'll sue!"

My mother, who is a middle school teacher, has parents who tell her that their children are perfect, and nevermind those tests that the child scored low on, the homework assignments that were never turned in, it's all the fault of the teacher. The fun part is that they're not accusing of her being a bad teacher or bad motivator, they accuse her of hiding the childs homework assignments and grading their tests differently than other kids.

It's mind boggling. Parents need to start realizing that their children aren't perfect and need actual parenting to make them better people.

 

[Newtons Bit]

I was careful to explain my thoughts on handicapped/developmentally delayed kids being bullied above. Having said that....

There is an unpleasant fact at work here. Some kids aren't as kewel/popular/big as the others and will get picked on. Bet on it, it ain't gonna stop. It does happen with adults as well, it is just more subtle. It happens with our nearest relatives as well, so it is possibly very firmly entrenched.

Bullies like easy targets, don't be an easy target. Be a target that bites back. Sometimes adults aren't around, sometimes their methods don't work, sometimes the system fails. So what to do? Curl up in the fetal position and cry, or fight back (by whatever means)?

It isn't necessarily their ("outsider's") fault, but they should be prepared to deal with it. Self reliance is a crucial life skill imo, regardless of one's crosses to bear.

I stopped being a target in high school. But that's when I donned the Marine Corps JROTC uniform, started growing a few muscles and became known as an excellent shot on the MCJROTC rifle team. And I may have accidently let slip that I was just as good of a shot with that AR-15 my dad bought me for my birthday.

Bullying stops when the bullies figure out you can kill them from 500yards. Then again, Columbine just happened so that might have been part of it too...

 

[Varanid]

I was 15. I was tiny. All my attackers were about twice my bodyweight. I had zero chance of being able to fight back in any way, shape or form. .

The thread is getting long and whatnot, so I understand, but I specifically excluded people such as yourself in my initial post. Though, I will also say I was probably about half the body weight of the kid that was bugging me. If one is properly trained, body size alone can be overcome in many circumstances.

Quoting myself:

My opinion comes with the assumption that we are talking about more or less average males of similar age. I don't know how the dynamics of adolescent girls would work. Further, kids with disabilities or those who are far behind the physical developmental curve may not have this option. Fortunately, at least in my experience, the "bully code" has them mostly on picking on kids that could defend themselves, given some training and self confidence.

I was referring to the act of fighting back. This is not the best choice for people like I explained.

None of this changes my other remarks though, Bullying is to be expected and it is understandable (though not justifiable).

 

[Varanid]

An acceptance of any one person's violence, physical or otherwise, towards another human being is a retrograde step back towards a less civilised time. Where children are concerned this counts double.

Sure, when we get to Utopia, I will change my tune. Of course, violent behavior is counter-productive to civilization. Doesn't stop it from happening.

 

[3point14]

The thread is getting long and whatnot, so I understand, but I specifically excluded people such as yourself in my initial post. Though, I will also say I was probably about half the body weight of the kid that was bugging me. If one is properly trained, body size alone can be overcome in many circumstances.

Quoting myself:


I was referring to the act of fighting back. This is not the best choice for people like I explained.

None of this changes my other remarks though, Bullying is to be expected and it is understandable (though not justifiable).

Accepted, with the exception of the bolded bit, which I believe is absolute tripe. Sorry.