Bullycide

[truethat]

So it's my fault I was bullied because I was weird? I didn't do anything on purpose, but hey, I exuded oddness and that makes the animalistic natures in them rise up so it isn't their fault either?

You're a sick, twisted and evil person.

No I'm not. I'm a logical and rational person. The evidence bears out that groups of kids ALWAYS forever and ever have bullied the "odd bird." The "odd bird" could be someone more intelligent, someone who looks weird, someone gay, someone kind and compassionate, etc. The only thing that matters is that the student "isn't like" the group.

The group think is pretty standard. It has been evidenced and studied. It is real.

Combining these two things has a predictable outcome. It isn't NOT their fault. The bullies have a choice not to bully. It isn't that they can't control this side of themselves. They are certainly at fault and responsible for their actions.

However I'm concerned about the victim of the bullying and ways to help the kid cope better with it. As we have seen in this thread, people have tried numerous ways to get it to stop. I am concerned about life long lasting psychological damage to a student who is a victim of bullying. The topic is bullycide, or suicide of the student who felt bullied.


My question is, can we educate the victim to understand better the dynamics of the situation and not take it to heart to the point that they commit suicide.

It seems to me a better approach because we can't STOP bullying. We can only punish bullying. I would encourage helping the victim and making clear the pattern of this in the world and helping students see the bigger picture.

I'm sorry you think I was blaming you. I'm not.


btw I think calling someone a sick and evil person is just as bad as bullying someone. What would you call it? Yet I don't internalize it or take it to heart because I can understand how you would feel that way. I know it's just lashing out. This "rationalization" or "disassociation" of your behavior towards me, leaves me feeling NOT like a victim just an observer of your attack.


Also whatthebutlersaw, flinging someone into a radiator and giving them a concussion could have killed the kid. I don't think violence IS the answer for this kind of reason. Things go wronger than you expected. I can understand why you did it though.

 

[commandlinegamer]

What I find odd is that schools were practically jamming tolerance down our throats since kindergarten. How is it that my generation of parents raised even worse monsters than the ones I went to school with?

(UK) That would be because they did away with corporal punishment.

Whilst belting/caning children in the past may have kept them in line, I refuse to subscribe to the notion it's the most appropriate solution. Unfortunately, so many people I speak to, especially of the older generation seem to think it so.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Also whatthebutlersaw, flinging someone into a radiator and giving them a concussion could have killed the kid.

If the kid had died, all the better.
Bullycide is a good idea.

 

[commandlinegamer]

The bullies have a choice not to bully. It isn't that they can't control this side of themselves. They are certainly at fault and responsible for their actions.

You think it's that simple?

 

[3point14]

My question is, can we educate the victim to understand better the dynamics of the situation and not take it to heart to the point that they commit suicide.

Quote heavily snipped.


Rearranging deckchairs on the titanic?

My answer is: Why the hell would you want to? Can we educate the perpetrator to not be such a dismal failure of a human being that they only achieve satisfaction through the misery of others?

You talk about 'victim speak' and 'whining' and then go on to absolve those responsible for the misery and, in some cases, the death of others by saying they shouldn't 'take it to heart' or 'take it personally' because it's human nature?

Shouldn't take it personally?

Sorry, I'm going to repeat that. In very large letters

Shouldn't take it personally?

How the bloody hell is the victim supposed to take a personal attack levelled, time and time again, at their person?

I have never, ever, in my time here felt the need to level such accusations as I am about to level at you, but you, fellow poster, are an apologist bastard whose attitude will merely end in the misery and the death of people who mean no harm to anyone and whose crime is only that they are a little different.

Do you feel the same about the victims of mugging? Rape? Knife-point robbery?

 

[Darat]

...snip...


, but you, fellow poster, are an apologist bastard whose attitude will merely end in the misery and the death of people who mean no harm to anyone and whose crime is only that they are a little different.

Do you feel the same about the victims of mugging? Rape? Knife-point robbery?

I think you are misunderstanding truethat's point (of course I could be the one misunderstanding it).

What she is saying is that since bullying does happen and it is unlikely that we will ever eradicate it we need good ways to help the victim. And one of the ways is to try and make sure the victim of bullying does not think that they are responsible at all for being bullied. It is like tying to help someone who has been raped to come to terms with the rape and ensuring they do not blame themselves for being the victim.

 

[Newtons Bit]

A small pet peeve of mine is the architecture of most schools. There are far too many secluded spots and odd corners. It ought to be possible for only a couple of adults to surveil a big area and wtf is up with all these schoolyards with different kinds of thorny bushes as the only green? Do they WANT the bullies to have somewhere thorny to push people? A surveiled recess area for quiet pursuits could prove a haven for persecuted kids. At mine and Nika's school that was the school library, until it was closed over lunch recess when staff was cut from two librarians to one.

Speaking as someone who works with architects: this is not high on their list of priorities. If they create an exterior feature that they think makes the building look cool, they'll keep it even though everyone else on the team has pointed out that it creates a place to hide. The engineers even called it a "rape corner" and yet they kept it. Ego must be satisfied!

 

[sgtbaker]

I think it is probably more about the technology being available than any one generation being more monstrous that another.

I agree and I also believe they have far too much unchecked access to this technology. There is one teenage girl on a mutual friend's FB account who snaps shots of herself in every class and updates her status. What!?! Why are her parent's liking her status instead of saying, "Put the damn cellphone away, you are in math!"

(UK) That would be because they did away with corporal punishment.

Whilst belting/caning children in the past may have kept them in line, I refuse to subscribe to the notion it's the most appropriate solution. Unfortunately, so many people I speak to, especially of the older generation seem to think it so.

I hope you don't think I was suggesting that lack of beatings has anything to do with it. I just think a lot of behaviors a child learns, comes from home. Why are parent's not better examples for how to treat people with a little decency?

 

[truethat]

Quote heavily snipped.


Rearranging deckchairs on the titanic?

My answer is: Why the hell would you want to? Can we educate the perpetrator to not be such a dismal failure of a human being that they only achieve satisfaction through the misery of others?

You talk about 'victim speak' and 'whining' and then go on to absolve those responsible for the misery and, in some cases, the death of others by saying they shouldn't 'take it to heart' or 'take it personally' because it's human nature?

Shouldn't take it personally?

Sorry, I'm going to repeat that. In very large letters

Shouldn't take it personally?

How the bloody hell is the victim supposed to take a personal attack levelled, time and time again, at their person?

I have never, ever, in my time here felt the need to level such accusations as I am about to level at you, but you, fellow poster, are an apologist bastard whose attitude will merely end in the misery and the death of people who mean no harm to anyone and whose crime is only that they are a little different.

Do you feel the same about the victims of mugging? Rape? Knife-point robbery?

I think it's cute that the people raging about victims of bullying are the ones using insults and name calling to try to get their point across.


Anyway perhaps I'm looking at this at too narrow of a lens. I am addressing ONLY the OP topic of suicide because of the result of bullying. In other words the kid couldn't take it and killed themselves.

I'm not talking about physical attacks because there are repercussions for physical assault. That's a no brainer and easier to solve. You touch another student in school and instant pronto suspension. That is easy to solve. Maybe the schools don't do it but as a solution we've seen zero tolerance policies creeping up around the country.


However you can bully a person without laying a hand on them. This is where it gets harder to correct. And frankly it does seem to me to be much more damaging psychologically to the victim than physical assault.

To me, (perhaps I'm wrong) this is what drives students to commit suicide. I am wondering if it is possible to create awareness campaigns that DO teach the student not to internalize it and take it personally. In doing so it would help avoid suicide. That is my goal with this approach.


It's why I liked the "It get's better" campaign. It helped students to realize that there is a bigger picture, future and hope. It identifies them as one of the larger group of victims of being bullied rather than the sole "odd ball" in their class. It gives them hope.

If you'd stop being outraged long enough to consider what I'm saying, I think you'd see what I mean.

We cannot stop bullying. It will always happen. We can stream it down as much as possible but if a teen is feeling ostracized and oppressed, giving them hope might save their life.


I never took it personally. Ever. I realized it was their problem not mine. I was bullied relentlessly every single day in junior high school. Beaten up on the way home, mocked and made fun of in the hallways. When I got to high school we merged with a different area of students so I had the chance to make new friends. But it never occurred to me to commit suicide because all of the girls in my gym class made fun of me day after day after day. I just thought they were beyotches. I didn't think it was my problem. I just knew I was different. It can be done, big giant message board letters aside.

 

[TragicMonkey]

I believe the best solution to deal with bullies would be for the adults in charge to arrange it for the bully to him-or-herself be bullied. Declare complete open season upon that person, and encourage all the other children to bully them as much as they like, with no repercussions or consequences. And of course the adults should join in, to ensure everything proceeds with the proper viciousness. I believe this will help educate the bully as to the consequences of his or her actions, and help them reach new heights of understanding, and should they feel the urge to end it all through suicide the means should be provided. Because education is about caring.

 

[Flo]

No I'm not. I'm a logical and rational person.

So you think ...

The evidence bears out that groups of kids ALWAYS forever and ever have bullied the "odd bird." The "odd bird" could be someone more intelligent, someone who looks weird, someone gay, someone kind and compassionate, etc. The only thing that matters is that the student "isn't like" the group.

The group think is pretty standard. It has been evidenced and studied. It is real.

And of course, bullies discover it on their own, aren't in any way influenced by the "in group" culture they're living in, it must be genetic and part of puberty or something like it, and they will grow out of it by themselves, just give it some time, there's absolutely nothing adults can do about it, societies are absolutely static in their views of outsiders, etc., etc.

My question is, can we educate the victim to understand better the dynamics of the situation and not take it to heart to the point that they commit suicide.

It seems to me a better approach because we can't STOP bullying. We can only punish bullying. I would encourage helping the victim and making clear the pattern of this in the world and helping students see the bigger picture.

You mean the bigger picture is that adults shouldn't attempt to change the groupthink and assorted conditions that encourage bullying, and content themselves with telling the victims "that's the way it is, don't take it that hard ?"

Also whatthebutlersaw, flinging someone into a radiator and giving them a concussion could have killed the kid. I don't think violence IS the answer for this kind of reason. Things go wronger than you expected. I can understand why you did it though.

She wouldn't have had to had adults around her behaved as adults and protect the weaker kid, instead of averting their eyes, washing their hands of it, and very likely taking the same repugnant approach you're advocating of telling victims to just suck it up !

 

[truethat]

I think you are misunderstanding truethat's point (of course I could be the one misunderstanding it).

What she is saying is that since bullying does happen and it is unlikely that we will ever eradicate it we need good ways to help the victim. And one of the ways is to try and make sure the victim of bullying does not think that they are responsible at all for being bullied. It is like tying to help someone who has been raped to come to terms with the rape and ensuring they do not blame themselves for being the victim.

Yep that's pretty much what I'm trying to say.

 

[commandlinegamer]

I hope you don't think I was suggesting that lack of beatings has anything to do with it. I just think a lot of behaviors a child learns, comes from home. Why are parent's not better examples for how to treat people with a little decency?

No, not you personally. And I should have clarified I meant corporal punishment in schools, though of course I think what happens at home is crucial.

 

[sgtbaker]

She wouldn't have had to had adults around her behaved as adults and protect the weaker kid, instead of averting their eyes, washing their hands of it, and very likely taking the same repugnant approach you're advocating of telling victims to just suck it up !

By that logic, physically and emotionally abused spouses and children need to just suck it up. There are always going to be alpha types.

 

[3point14]

I think you are misunderstanding truethat's point (of course I could be the one misunderstanding it).

What she is saying is that since bullying does happen and it is unlikely that we will ever eradicate it we need good ways to help the victim. And one of the ways is to try and make sure the victim of bullying does not think that they are responsible at all for being bullied. It is like tying to help someone who has been raped to come to terms with the rape and ensuring they do not blame themselves for being the victim.

Yes. Good points. Well made. Head running away with me and all that. Of course it makes sense to assist those who are victims to deal with it. I just get the feeling (probably wrongly) that truthat believes that this is all that should be done. The tone of the posts suggests to me that the victim is at fault.

I think it's cute that the people raging about victims of bullying are the ones using insults and name calling to try to get their point across.


Anyway perhaps I'm looking at this at too narrow of a lens. I am addressing ONLY the OP topic of suicide because of the result of bullying. In other words the kid couldn't take it and killed themselves.

I'm not talking about physical attacks because there are repercussions for physical assault. That's a no brainer and easier to solve. You touch another student in school and instant pronto suspension. That is easy to solve. Maybe the schools don't do it but as a solution we've seen zero tolerance policies creeping up around the country.


However you can bully a person without laying a hand on them. This is where it gets harder to correct. And frankly it does seem to me to be much more damaging psychologically to the victim than physical assault.

To me, (perhaps I'm wrong) this is what drives students to commit suicide. I am wondering if it is possible to create awareness campaigns that DO teach the student not to internalize it and take it personally. In doing so it would help avoid suicide. That is my goal with this approach.


It's why I liked the "It get's better" campaign. It helped students to realize that there is a bigger picture, future and hope. It identifies them as one of the larger group of victims of being bullied rather than the sole "odd ball" in their class. It gives them hope.

If you'd stop being outraged long enough to consider what I'm saying, I think you'd see what I mean.

We cannot stop bullying. It will always happen. We can stream it down as much as possible but if a teen is feeling ostracized and oppressed, giving them hope might save their life.


I never took it personally. Ever. I realized it was their problem not mine. I was bullied relentlessly every single day in junior high school. Beaten up on the way home, mocked and made fun of in the hallways. When I got to high school we merged with a different area of students so I had the chance to make new friends. But it never occurred to me to commit suicide because all of the girls in my gym class made fun of me day after day after day. I just thought they were beyotches. I didn't think it was my problem. I just knew I was different. It can be done, big giant message board letters aside.

Right.

Apologies. First and foremost, apologies. A slight rant at a possible misperception of your point of view. Regretted and withdrawn. I'd delete it, but that, I think would be dishonest.

I still think that your posts contain a level of 'blame the victim', and while you may have the strength of character to overcome the disadvantages placed in your way by the unreasonable in life, I think others really don't. I still suspect a degree of rationalisation in the way you have dealt with it, and if this is what enables you to put it all behind you, then fair enough. I think others don't have that strength, perhaps, some years ago, myself included.

I still have a perception that you think it's not that big a deal and that discussing it is 'whining', can you tell me that my perception is dishonest? I promise I'll try to be civilised this time.

 

[Astrodude]

Though I despise the neologism "bullycide" because it is constructed to mean "kill a bully", I definitely can understand why suicidal tendencies can develop from being bullied. The school system is largely to blame for placing ambitious students in situations where they cannot defend themselves from bullies. If the student defends himself, his academic career is in jeopardy because the school may discipline him.

Case and point: I knew a Jamaican girl who was going to a high school(wasn't mine), but she didn't know many people and just moved. A professedly homosexual boy groped her and told her that she shouldn't be bothered by this because he is gay. The girl slapped him and she was the one who got suspended.

 

[Wudang]

Even as snipped as it was

My question is, can we educate the victim to understand better the dynamics of the situation and not take it to heart to the point that they commit suicide.

I was badly bullied by a group I thought were my friends my final year of primary school and at the age of 52 I still find it hard to believe that friends will stick by me. That some have is testament to their character, not mine.

However those who bullied me were not monsters, they were children. They were children who required education in more than just maths and geography but in social skills and life. Want to know why they bullied me? Part of it was I came from a poor family and was top of the class whereas everyone else who was near my standard came from better-off homes, which was the lever the guy used against me to get some friends to join in the bullying. He did that because his parents had promised him a reward if he won the final year scholastic medal ( a new bike and £100 which was a fantastic sum in 1976). That's a lot of motivation to throw at an 11 year old. And he didn't handle it well, but he was only 11. While I disagree with some things truethat has said and some are quite badly put, the fact is that branding these kids as monsters and failures is simplistic and unhelpful. They were children who did something that requires correction. We were never friends after that but in Uni days I bumped into one or other occasionally and we'd have a beer and a chat.
I was called aside by my my 5 year old's teacher last year and was told she'd joined in bullying another child who'd been desperately upset. My daughter had been treated badly by that in-group herself and when they invited her in, she joined in. As truethat says, that's human psychology for you. I had a long talk with her so she understood what she'd done, how the victim felt, "was that nice?". She felt really bad and asked the girl to play with her next day and no there's been no repetition. She's only little and it will be a lot of years before her brain finishes growing.
By the way as soon as one of the staff saw her start crying the victim was taken away to be comforted. The bullies were sent to the headteacher's office and were told their parents would be informed. But the school also saw it as an educational issue - that the children needed to understand what they had done. They were children who done a bad thing not bad children.
Adult bullies are a different case.

 

[Flo]

By that logic, physically and emotionally abused spouses and children need to just suck it up. There are always going to be alpha types.

But curiously, violence, physical or emotional, towards spouses and children is more and more considered unacceptable everywhere, even in a country like Japan where "ijime" (bullying, intimidation) in schools is rife, with teachers and school authorities averting their eyes and refusing to acknowledge the problem, and most people still blaming the victims.

Nowadays, the Japanese are starting to see how abhorrent that attitude is, what it tells about a society that tolerates it, and what the costs are. One of my friend's daughter and grandson have been victims of domestic and school violence and harrassment, and that made him think about those problems ... Even as a man raised in a culture of "manly men", he has started realising that the only way to change the problem is to signal, at a society level, that bullying, violence against people who are different, and blaming the victim isn't acceptable anymore.

 

[Nosi]

It's also a little creepy to me when "weirdo" kids with emotional problems are picked on. Then they do something bonkers and everyone blames the bullying for making them snap.

There are some types of people that other people just don't like. They get a weird vibe about them.

Now in some cases bullying is about picking on the gay kid outsider or strange bird. But other times I've seen people just not liking someone who is anti social.

Like the kid who did the shooting in Arizona. Or the school shooters in Columbine. Are we going to rewrite history and call that bullycide?

Before we toss out the new terminology we ought to take a good long look at the reality of bullying. Not just the emotional pleading and hard experiences.

What causes a group to react so negatively towards one person. It happened to me and years later I realized uh, yeah I WAS a weirdo. It does make sense. It shows.

I would think that aggressive bully-prevention would be a high priority among schools to prevent shootings and such violence if nothing else. Shootings can take out a whole mess of kids. And we don't know which kids can slide over the edge or who's kids have guns laying about, or even a pipe bomb or two.

 

[Chaos]

And I never said that they do.




Which was part of the point I made.




You need to re-read my post - you have totally and utterly failed to understand it.

You felt the need to decry what victims do in their desperation to somehow defend themselves. If you do that, if you make victims feel guilty about defends themselves in the only way they can, or try to prevent them from defending themselves, then yes, you are enabling bullies.

Once a child continues to be bullied, the gloves are off, period.

A victim needs not care to avoid harming the bully - after all the bully intentionally bullies his victim; nobody forced him to do this, and he has no justification for bullying.

A victim, at this point, needs not care about not doing things that are "frowned upon", because by allowing the bullying to continue, authority figures and society have lost any right to frown upon anything the victim does.

Bullying needs to stop, end of discussion. I don´t *********** care if that means every bully ends up spending every day from age 6 to age 21 in solitary confinement to stop them from bullying. It is their decision to bully others, so let them suffer the consequences. Whenever bullying is happening, any harm resulting from it for anyone are solely the responsibility of the bully and authority figures who let him continue bullying.