Bullycide

[Sabrina]

Unfortunately the evidence so far is that it will be those bullying that will make the most use of new technology.

Plus the bystanders... see the news stories about students shooting video on their phones while a girl was being gang raped... and I'm sure pictures and videos exist of the bullying the students who committed suicide suffered.

That's why I think students shouldn't be allowed to bring cell phones and cameras and the like to school; they have no place in furthering education and seem to promote a rather callous attitude in adolescents if those sorts of stories are at all accurate.

 

[aggle-rithm]

Ok

sooooooo, once again we have a situation with inferring things that are not there.

I'm going to edit this in a second but if you go back and read the ACTUAL WORDS THAT I"VE WRITTEN it doesn't support your claim. Gimme a sec


Ok where did I ever say that "bullying had "NO EFFECT" contrast that to how many times I've discussed psychological trauma and lasting psychological trauma.

Now let's put on the common sense hat, (not trying to be snarky) Is it even reasonable at all to believe that anyone raised in the United States who has children in the school system and was a victim of bullying herself, would ever suggest that bullying doesn't have lasting psychological trauma.

I guess this is where I do get frustrated. Only an idiot would believe that a victim of constant bullying is not in someway traumatized by this. Which I've said, so those are the words that I have written. Yet you choose to infer that


That sentence is where I am inferring that you believe that the fact that we were bullied in school in various ways has had no effect on us in our adult lives.




I'm just a little shocked that you made that a statement. Though, as this thread has shown, maybe you didn't mean it literally?

I don't mentally play the victim nearly as much today as I once did. At one time, I believed that my problems with social interaction as an adult could be traced back to bullying I received as a child.

Now, I'm more inclined to believe that I simply was never good at social interaction, and the bullying was an unfortunate result of that. Not that the bullying helped.

I didn't suffer very much trauma by the time I reached high school, because by then I had learned to make myself invisible to protect myself. The problem is that once you learn to do this, it's incredibly difficult to unlearn. I have missed out on many opportunities as an adult because every instinct tells me I must always keep a low profile.

But...what're you gonna do? You have to play with the cards you're dealt.

 

[truethat]

I don't mentally play the victim nearly as much today as I once did. At one time, I believed that my problems with social interaction as an adult could be traced back to bullying I received as a child.

Now, I'm more inclined to believe that I simply was never good at social interaction, and the bullying was an unfortunate result of that. Not that the bullying helped.

I didn't suffer very much trauma by the time I reached high school, because by then I had learned to make myself invisible to protect myself. The problem is that once you learn to do this, it's incredibly difficult to unlearn. I have missed out on many opportunities as an adult because every instinct tells me I must always keep a low profile.

But...what're you gonna do? You have to play with the cards you're dealt.

That's kind of how I see it as well. However, I think what some people are pointing out is that some people can do that and others do not. It's slightly cruel to suggest that you can just get over it and if you can't that's your problem. As a society it's important to honor and respect the struggles and differences and impact these differences have on us as a whole. I'm working on that.

 

[sgtbaker]

Plus the bystanders... see the news stories about students shooting video on their phones while a girl was being gang raped... and I'm sure pictures and videos exist of the bullying the students who committed suicide suffered.

That's why I think students shouldn't be allowed to bring cell phones and cameras and the like to school; they have no place in furthering education and seem to promote a rather callous attitude in adolescents if those sorts of stories are at all accurate.

This is just my opinion and I've been called a Nazi for it but I honestly don't think that kids can handle the responsibility/accountibility of having so much technology available to them. They see something atrocious happening and rather than think it needs to be stopped, they think, 'Oh this would make an awesome youtube video. Their connections to real life and empathy, I think, have been desensitized by watching fail videos.

 

[Darat]

This is just my opinion and I've been called a Nazi for it but I honestly don't think that kids can handle the responsibility/accountibility of having so much technology available to them. They see something atrocious happening and rather than think it needs to be stopped, they think, 'Oh this would make an awesome youtube video. Their connections to real life and empathy, I think, have been desensitized by watching fail videos.

Don't agree with that - I would say that's an example of "bystander effect".

ETA: Which come to think of it could be part of the reason why behaviours like bullying are very difficult to root out.

 

[sgtbaker]

Don't agree with that - I would say that's an example of "bystander effect".

ETA: Which come to think of it could be part of the reason why behaviours like bullying are very difficult to root out.

You are right. The bystander effect isn't new. It just seems that much more shocking that one could not only stand by but video tape it, put it up and then let everyone else know that they stood by and did nothing.

As for the bullying, I've noticed a movement in youth directed channels advertising about standing by and doing nothing; how it's just as wrong. I think it's good that it's being addressed.

 

[Sabrina]

Working as I do in government consulting, I've gotten used to not having my cell phone on me on a constant basis; most of the time I leave my phone in my car when I enter the facilities I work in. I think that principle would work very well in schools; phones and other items of technology like MP3 players, videocameras, and cameras have no place in a school. They don't fulfill any useful purpose there at all, and do seem to promote the "bystander effect" when it comes to situations like what we're discussing.

So I say ban all technology except the most necessary (i.e. calculators) from school premises up through high school; presumably by the time the student has entered college they've learned how to properly use technology and can be trusted more with it in the form of laptop computers and the like.

 

[Belz...]

We permanently disagree. If I live under the gun of an oppressor, and I initiate an attack against him, even if he isn't immediately pointing the gun at me, that's self-defense.

Wonderful. The best defense is a good offense, right ?

 

[Belz...]

No. Just telling victims "it's always been happening and will happen again, don't take it too bad, it's not about you" will solve nothing. What's needed is telling them "you've been a victim of abuse, we'll protect you from now on, we'll punish your abuser and prevent him/her to hurt you again", or in other words "we adults are going to behave as adults and make sure that kind of behavior becomes a thing of the past as much as we can".

Perhaps you need to tell them both.

 

[Belz...]

Do you believe that because someone is antisocial it makes them a legitimate target for mental and physical violence?

Do you believe that bullying is wrong and that when it happens, figures in authority should take action to stop it?

If I may step in and give my own answers:

No, and yes.

But bullying is a complex issue. When I was in high school, one particular incident with a teacher in class on the second day of school basically labeled me as an outcast and I spent the next four years trying to survive. It's a good thing I had three good friends who were also ostracised. I basically survived by isolating myself completely from the mass until I reached college, as I said earlier.

At one point, in the final grade, for some reason, I began to pick on this newcommer for some reason. The thing went on for quite a few minutes before I realised "wait a minute, what the **** am I doing ?" and remembered that this is exactly what I had lived before. So stopped I did. I still wonder what triggered that momentary insanity. I think it was simply A) an outlet for years of frustration and B) because I could, which is quite frightening. Was it the same for my own tormentors ? Who knows.

Another thing that allowed me to live through this is that, aside from the fact that I was never "taxed" (pretty much the only thing I didn't have to live through), my parents made it very clear that I wasn't to blame for all this.
However, I wish the school authorities had made more efforts to deal with this kind of situation. For some reason I found myself in the principal's office as often as the bullies. Well, at least the teachers were nice to us and my friends and I spent more time chatting with them than with the other students.

 

[Belz...]

Last I checked YOU are not PEOPLE.

Here you go, belittling other posters, again.

 

[truethat]

If I may step in and give my own answers:

No, and yes.

But bullying is a complex issue. When I was in high school, one particular incident with a teacher in class on the second day of school basically labeled me as an outcast and I spent the next four years trying to survive. It's a good thing I had three good friends who were also ostracised. I basically survived by isolating myself completely from the mass until I reached college, as I said earlier.

At one point, in the final grade, for some reason, I began to pick on this newcommer for some reason. The thing went on for quite a few minutes before I realised "wait a minute, what the **** am I doing ?" and remembered that this is exactly what I had lived before. So stopped I did. I still wonder what triggered that momentary insanity. I think it was simply A) an outlet for years of frustration and B) because I could, which is quite frightening. Was it the same for my own tormentors ? Who knows.

Another thing that allowed me to live through this is that, aside from the fact that I was never "taxed" (pretty much the only thing I didn't have to live through), my parents made it very clear that I wasn't to blame for all this.
However, I wish the school authorities had made more efforts to deal with this kind of situation. For some reason I found myself in the principal's office as often as the bullies. Well, at least the teachers were nice to us and my friends and I spent more time chatting with them than with the other students.

It's funny that you mention that because you just reminded me of something. This is one of those "stick in the craw" moments that are stuck in my guilty pile. When I was in the same grade that all those girls were making fun of me in gym class there was a boy who was usually somewhere next to me in school seating wise because our last names were (oh and my last name has Guber in it, so you can imagine how that helped with bulling) but his was Gren something. He was teasing me in a science class one day saying he had lots of friends and I didn't have any and that his friends all stood behind him. Well he was a fat kid and I started retorting and saying "Well sure they can because you're so fat all your friends can stand behind you but we'd never see them." I was in 7th grade. I felt immediately horrible for saying it and I sat in guilt for a few minutes and then really apologized to him. I felt horrible. Ironically he was the one who helped settle down the craziness when after I beat up the two girls in gym class and one of them tried to start with me again he said to the girl, "You better shut up before she kicks your ass again!" and the whole class burst out laughing at the girl. After that the bullying stopped. Like you I stepped right into it and then stopped. I wonder why? Is it because we were bullied ourselves and saw it?

Also (I know I said I wouldn't post again here and I'm still posting but I will try to be more compassionate and clear)

I was reading about Phoebe Price and an interesting part jumped out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_of_Phoebe_Prince

Having recently moved to the U.S. from Ireland, Prince had been taunted and bullied for several months by at least two separate groups of students at South Hadley High School, reportedly because of disputes with other girls over her brief relationships with a senior high school football player and a second male student. Her aunt had allegedly warned school officials in August 2009, prior to Prince's enrollment at the school, to watch after Prince, as she was "susceptible" to bullying and had been bullied in Ireland.[13]

This is a good word, "susceptible" and what I was trying to point out before. It is strange that the girl was also bullied in Ireland. The girl is beautiful in the pictures. She would not appear to be the kind of kid that isn't popular in school. Yet in two different countries she was bullied. Why is that? What makes a kid susceptible to bullying? And why did she commit suicide? What is the pattern here? This isn't about blaming the victim but about understanding the dynamics of bullying. So many teachers saw this girl getting bullied and didn't report it or intervene or take it very seriously.

In understanding how serious this pattern is and how it can ultimately lead to such a tragic outcome, perhaps we can also educate the teachers to recognize signs that there may be a problem.

You are right. The bystander effect isn't new. It just seems that much more shocking that one could not only stand by but video tape it, put it up and then let everyone else know that they stood by and did nothing.

As for the bullying, I've noticed a movement in youth directed channels advertising about standing by and doing nothing; how it's just as wrong. I think it's good that it's being addressed.

This is the kind of thing I mean when I say an educational campaign designed to teach the dynamics of bullying.

 

[sgtbaker]

This is a good word, "susceptible" and what I was trying to point out before. It is strange that the girl was also bullied in Ireland. The girl is beautiful in the pictures. She would not appear to be the kind of kid that isn't popular in school. Yet in two different countries she was bullied. Why is that? What makes a kid susceptible to bullying? And why did she commit suicide? What is the pattern here? This isn't about blaming the victim but about understanding the dynamics of bullying. So many teachers saw this girl getting bullied and didn't report it or intervene or take it very seriously.

In understanding how serious this pattern is and how it can ultimately lead to such a tragic outcome, perhaps we can also educate the teachers to recognize signs that there may be a problem.

You really can't tell things like speech impediments or social phobias from a picture. Also, one thing I've noticed is being beautiful and a nonconformist will probably increase your odds of being a target. As you said in an earlier post, there is not just one type of a bully. The girls may single her out because of sheer jealousy. I honestly don't think it's just something that moms tell their kids. Something about a particular person's presence is perceived as a threat to their confidence and they react by attempting to belittle that threat.

 

[Sabrina]

You really can't tell things like speech impediments or social phobias from a picture. Also, one thing I've noticed is being beautiful and a nonconformist will probably increase your odds of being a target. As you said in an earlier post, there is not just one type of a bully. The girls may single her out because of sheer jealousy. I honestly don't think it's just something that moms tell their kids. Something about a particular person's presence is perceived as a threat to their confidence and they react by attempting to belittle that threat.

See: Mean Girls for excellent example of this (LiLo before she became a drugged out coke-you-know-what was a very pretty girl). Difference there is the picked on girl fought back by turning the game back on the mean girls; not everyone is going to be able to do that.

Sorry to bring Hollywood movies into the discussion but I felt it was somewhat apropos; except in Hollywood the bullied tend to teach their tormentors a valuable life lesson while at the same time rising above the bullying. If only real life were a tiny bit more like that...

 

[whatthebutlersaw]

You really can't tell things like speech impediments or social phobias from a picture. Also, one thing I've noticed is being beautiful and a nonconformist will probably increase your odds of being a target. As you said in an earlier post, there is not just one type of a bully. The girls may single her out because of sheer jealousy. I honestly don't think it's just something that moms tell their kids. Something about a particular person's presence is perceived as a threat to their confidence and they react by attempting to belittle that threat.

I call this the "laugh at the beanie"-syndrome. A certain type of teenage girls will hate, on sight, anyone they perceive to be possibly attractive to their own demographic, including complete strangers on a bus. When this happens they always attempt ridicule as a first resort. Anything non-conformist in the targets apparel will be utilized. If nothing is non-conformist about the person they don't like, they will make something up. I often observe this since I commute by bus and my bus is the same as the school run.

I, as an adult and an outsider, can see how pathetic and revealing this behaviour is, but that is likely no comfort to the target.


Sticking out because of positive traits can just as easily get you bullied.

Or even neutral but uncommon in the given surrounding, can be enough. Or neutral but pissing off the wrong psycho. Otherwise we would have to assume that redheaded people in Britain somehow have lousy personalities, as opposed to redheaded people in the US or in Sweden, since they get mercilessly bullied in the UK, but not in America or Scandinavia. One mans gingah is the other's sultry redhead. The redhead remains the same. Or should mutations on the Mc1 be considered a character flaw if one has the temerity to be born on the British isles, but not otherwise?

Do stalked adults have only themselves to blame, or is this applicable only to children?

Other times, bullying can start from a regular conflict that escalates. Two equally popular girls fall out and the most insane of the two will go after the other with such venom and tenacity that the conflict turns into bullying. Sadly, bullies rarely have a problem recruiting acolytes. Hormones are running rampant and the smallest slight can lead to total death. I know someone who was bullied by the girls in her class for years after an invitation to a birthday party got lost in the mail. The lost invitation was to the bf of the most popular girl in the class. And that was enough.

Kids don't need rational reasons. They are not rational that is why we protect them against having to make decisions for themselves in other areas of life, like whether to drink alcohol, or smoke or drive cars. But for this, all of a sudden they are the authority on acceptable behaviour? Why would anyone think that?

(I'm agreeing with you, if that is unclear. It got wordier than I planned.)

 

[Cainkane1]

The effects of bullying really do last a lifetime. A friend of mine who had polio in his right leg was playing touch football and when he caught the ball a larger kid ran into him full tilt and hit him in the back with both elbows. My friend fell hard on his face and got a severe bloody nose.

This was 50 years ago and he still thinks about it. His main problem is the fact he was an obvious cripple and that there was no reason to blindside him like that. He wore a brace and walked with a very obvious limp.

Compared to other kids he was lucky when it came to bullying. When I was in school I witnessed assaults, vandalism of property, insults, kds getting spit on by larger students all of which was completely unprovoked.

This should not be part of growing up.

I've been on two juries and I've always argued for the worse punishment for the offender. I keenly feel the victims pain.

 

[sgtbaker]

I call this the "laugh at the beanie"-syndrome. A certain type of teenage girls will hate, on sight, anyone they perceive to be possibly attractive to their own demographic, including complete strangers on a bus. When this happens they always attempt ridicule as a first resort. Anything non-conformist in the targets apparel will be utilized. If nothing is non-conformist about the person they don't like, they will make something up. I often observe this since I commute by bus and my bus is the same as the school run.

I, as an adult and an outsider, can see how pathetic and revealing this behaviour is, but that is likely no comfort to the target.


Sticking out because of positive traits can just as easily get you bullied.

Or even neutral but uncommon in the given surrounding, can be enough. Or neutral but pissing off the wrong psycho. Otherwise we would have to assume that redheaded people in Britain somehow have lousy personalities, as opposed to redheaded people in the US or in Sweden, since they get mercilessly bullied in the UK, but not in America or Scandinavia. One mans gingah is the other's sultry redhead. The redhead remains the same. Or should mutations on the Mc1 be considered a character flaw if one has the temerity to be born on the British isles, but not otherwise?

Do stalked adults have only themselves to blame, or is this applicable only to children?

Other times, bullying can start from a regular conflict that escalates. Two equally popular girls fall out and the most insane of the two will go after the other with such venom and tenacity that the conflict turns into bullying. Sadly, bullies rarely have a problem recruiting acolytes. Hormones are running rampant and the smallest slight can lead to total death. I know someone who was bullied by the girls in her class for years after an invitation to a birthday party got lost in the mail. The lost invitation was to the bf of the most popular girl in the class. And that was enough.

Kids don't need rational reasons. They are not rational that is why we protect them against having to make decisions for themselves in other areas of life, like whether to drink alcohol, or smoke or drive cars. But for this, all of a sudden they are the authority on acceptable behaviour? Why would anyone think that?

(I'm agreeing with you, if that is unclear. It got wordier than I planned.)

*my highlight*

Well I, for one, am shocked!

In all seriousness, the length of your posts may be legendary, but so is the content. Keep them coming. I just want to make sure that you don't think
that I was suggesting that knowing why the bullying is occuring is all that helpful for the victim. What I do think it is helpful for (sorry, having trouble wording that), is the adult interceptor. Knowing what is causing red flag behavior can make it easier to address and correct it.

From a personal perspective, I go through periods of confidence and periods of severe insecurity. I've noticed that I am most judgemental of other people, when I am feeling vulnerable. When I am feeling particularly insecure, I compare myself to other people and then search for that justification for why I am the way that I am. A thought in my head could go something like, "She may be prettier than me but that's because she's so simple, that's all she has," and I don't even have to know the person to come to a conclusion like that. Sometimes I search for that flaw to secretly laugh at or make myself feel better, believing that it probably bothers her, too. Yet, if I am feeling secure, I am completely unconcerned with what other people are doing, or look like, for that matter. Of course that only covers one type of bully, but that's the only type that I can identify with.

For the record, I was never popular and I've never outwardly said those things to anyone, I just think them.

 

[Belz...]

Or even neutral but uncommon in the given surrounding, can be enough. Or neutral but pissing off the wrong psycho. Otherwise we would have to assume that redheaded people in Britain somehow have lousy personalities, as opposed to redheaded people in the US or in Sweden, since they get mercilessly bullied in the UK, but not in America or Scandinavia. One mans gingah is the other's sultry redhead.

Funny tidbit: in grade school I was teased by the older students because of my red hair. But in high school, where I was bullied, for some reason it was never an issue...

 

[Belz...]

The effects of bullying really do last a lifetime. A friend of mine who had polio in his right leg was playing touch football and when he caught the ball a larger kid ran into him full tilt and hit him in the back with both elbows. My friend fell hard on his face and got a severe bloody nose.

Now, where have I read that before... ?

Bullying really is bad. I have a friend who suffers the effects of polio and here 51 years later he still complains bitterly about an incident where he was playing touch football and when he caught a pass a larger boy elbowed him hard behind. My friend fell violently forward and he had a bloody nose.

Ah, there it is !!

 

[truethat]

Very true about the pretty girl getting bullied. But it doesn't seem to be the case in Pheobe Prince.

In doing a little digging I found what I suspected. Unfortunately I'm sure I'm going to get slammed to the mat again for looking at this issue from a realistic stance, no matter how not glamourously sympathetic it may be. I am not interested in blaming the victim here, but finding out the truth of the pattern. There is the pattern in her case that I was discussing before.

(again I'm only discussing suicide as a result of bullying)

Patterns I've seen

An "odd bird" she just is a little different than the rest, smarter, prettier, is also "different" IMO since most teenagers are freaking morons.

Her mother and father had no idea what was going on. Her father is Ireland and the mother used to leave her alone one night a week in the apartment.

Psychological issues, Phoebe was a cutter and had attempted suicide before, prior to the bullying. She was also on two different kinds of prescriptions for mood disorders including Prozac, which she had stopped taking.

Taking things very personally and internalizing things that others might have an easier time letting roll of their back.

She also got in trouble for smoking pot and scarring herself with the pipe in a burn, and had it reported to her mother and was going to have to deal with that when she went home. She might have been pushed to the edge for this reason as well.

Now I was never seriously targeted as a "slut or a whore" at school so I'm not sure if I'd have been able to blow that off. I think that's slightly different in bullying. But I do know some people can take being called a slut and not give a damn but others would be horrified at it.


The DA is making a major case out of this and I think it's a good idea because I do think overall that we should criminalize bullying. I think the idea of prosecution could serve as a deterrent and also get parents more involved. However I'd be hard pressed to vote guilty for any of these students.

More here Not sure about the source, if anyone knows it's a crap source please let us know.

http://www.newser.com/story/96116/the-truth-about-what-happened-to-phoebe-prince.html