Bullish on Bernie: The Bernie Sanders 2016 Thread

[dudalb]

And "Comnunity Based Economics" is just plain old "Workers control the means of production" Marxist nonsense with a Hippie Commune Happy Face Painted on it.
And "non violence" is impractical in today;'s world. Ain't gonna work with the likes of ISIS and Putin.
You will never sell that whole platform in a million year to the American Public. Even a lot of Bernie supporters will dismiss it as utopian nonsense.
And,BTW,look at the record of Utopian movements in the 20th Century when they do get into power. Not very encouraging.
Axiom, I know about your "Hippie Parents" background. Seems t me like you really have never had a lot of real contact with people who do not come from that background,and have spent all your poltical life in the far left. I don't think you realize just how small a portion of the American electorate you are.

 

[foophil]

And what does the green party do?

Make Soylent?

 

[luchog]

How many of Clinton's supposed crimes are actually just CT ranting?

I know I'm going to be accused of a middle-ground fallacy here; but I don't think the situation is as black-and-white as criminal psychopath vs. conspiracy theory.

There is definitely indication that she has been rather cavalier with many of her actions involving intelligence and security; though the investigation for at least one of those actions is still ongoing. And she has supported some rather questionable actions by the US government, including the Iraq war and ongoing drone strikes in the Middle East, which some seem to believe would be enough to qualify her as a war criminal (which same can be said about the last two presidents and most of Congress at this point). How much of that is deliberate, how much is incompetence, and how much is just blowing with the political wind remains to be seen.

 

[luchog]

And despite logger's incredulity, in addition to being a Bull Moose (Progressive) Republican (an endangered species many claim), I am also a very Roman Catholic, not that I have anything against others' beliefs, or the lack of such.

Have known a few others like you, as well as some Log Cabin Republicans.

Given the current crop of candidates, I would likely vote for a Bull Moose over pretty much anyone else in the race except Sanders.

 

[Axiom_Blade]

Ugh. Just the term "social justice" gives me headaches.

"Social justice" is used on the Internet to troll people. That doesn't make it inherently bad. It's like how Rush Limbaugh and others like him made "liberal" into a slur. If you look at the history of the word, "liberal" isn't something to be ashamed of, either.

And "Comnunity Based Economics" is just plain old "Workers control the means of production" Marxist nonsense with a Hippie Commune Happy Face Painted on it.

I don't really have a problem with that. I think that workers controlling the means of production makes a lot of sense. Most people agree that democracy is the best form of government for a country, but they balk at democracy in the workplace. Why?

And "non violence" is impractical in today;'s world. Ain't gonna work with the likes of ISIS and Putin.

I support self-defense. Violence should absolutely be the last resort.

You will never sell that whole platform in a million year to the American Public. Even a lot of Bernie supporters will dismiss it as utopian nonsense.

Okay. It wouldn't be the first time in history that the majority of people were wrong. What's illogical is the idea that even though most people are wrong, I still have to join them in walking off the cliff. (Or, more accurately, help them push me off the cliff.)

And,BTW,look at the record of Utopian movements in the 20th Century when they do get into power. Not very encouraging.

Yes, look at Sweden, Denmark, Norway. Total disasters.
Dictatorships are bad. The Green Party is also against dictators. This is a contrast to the Republican and Democratic Parties, who are all too happy to support dictators if they think it's to their advantage. Only when they turn on us do they become the "bad guys".

Axiom, I know about your "Hippie Parents" background. Seems t me like you really have never had a lot of real contact with people who do not come from that background,and have spent all your poltical life in the far left. I don't think you realize just how small a portion of the American electorate you are.

"Hippie parents"? They used to be hippies, I guess. They certainly weren't when I knew them. My dad listened to, and agreed with, Rush Limbaugh regularly, and he even continued to back W. Bush after many on the right became embarrassed by him. He was also very racist, sexist, and homophobic. My mom didn't talk about politics much, but she always agreed with my dad on everything, political or otherwise, just like a good Christian wife should.

You are correct that I haven't spent a lot of time with right-wingers. I'm not sure if that's more out of choice or circumstance. From what I understand, many people do support initiatives similar to the ones supported by the Green Party. If they don't, then it's our job to persuade them. I know I need to work on the persuasion part more.

 

[dudalb]

"Social justice" is used on the Internet to troll people. That doesn't make it inherently bad. It's like how Rush Limbaugh and others like him made "liberal" into a slur. If you look at the history of the word, "liberal" isn't something to be ashamed of, either.



I don't really have a problem with that. I think that workers controlling the means of production makes a lot of sense. Most people agree that democracy is the best form of government for a country, but they balk at democracy in the workplace. Why?




I support self-defense. Violence should absolutely be the last resort.



Okay. It wouldn't be the first time in history that the majority of people were wrong. What's illogical is the idea that even though most people are wrong, I still have to join them in walking off the cliff. (Or, more accurately, help them push me off the cliff.)



Yes, look at Sweden, Denmark, Norway. Total disasters.
Dictatorships are bad. The Green Party is also against dictators. This is a contrast to the Republican and Democratic Parties, who are all too happy to support dictators if they think it's to their advantage. Only when they turn on us do they become the "bad guys".



"Hippie parents"? They used to be hippies, I guess. They certainly weren't when I knew them. My dad listened to, and agreed with, Rush Limbaugh regularly, and he even continued to back W. Bush after many on the right became embarrassed by him. He was also very racist, sexist, and homophobic. My mom didn't talk about politics much, but she always agreed with my dad on everything, political or otherwise, just like a good Christian wife should.

You are correct that I haven't spent a lot of time with right-wingers. I'm not sure if that's more out of choice or circumstance. From what I understand, many people do support initiatives similar to the ones supported by the Green Party. If they don't, then it's our job to persuade them. I know I need to work on the persuasion part more.

A,Worker control of production really worked great in Russia, China,etc didn't it?
B.What the Green Party proposes goes a long,long way beyond anything the Scandanavian countries have done or ever proposed. And in recent years even the Scandnavian countries have moved away from a command economy.

Your problem is you basically don't like the idea of a market economy,and want a command economy;ie the state decides what should be made,what price it should be at,etc. That has always proved to be a disaster.
The problem with the Green Party Utopia..Which sound an awful lot like the Venus project..is the same thing that dooms all Utopias:Human Nature.

 

[luchog]

There will not be an overwhelming majority of progressives in congress,so you are saying we should just sit back and get ready for a form of Fascism in America?

I think the political structures are still strong enough that it won't descend that far in four years, but Trump and his supporters will make a damned good try at it; and we're likely looking at another serious economic downturn as the US loses the political and economic confidence of the rest of the world.

 

[luchog]

What's ridiculous about it? I like this part:

Create millions of jobs by transitioning to 100% clean renewable energy by 2030, and investing in public transit, sustainable agriculture, and conservation.

Given the Green's opposition to nuclear power, opposition to GMOs, and general anti-science bent with regard to agriculture, this is nothing but a pipe dream. Just more unrealistic utopian-ism.

 

[luchog]

B.What the Green Party proposes goes a long,long way beyond anything the Scandanavian countries have done or ever proposed. And in recent years even the Scandnavian countries have moved away from a command economy.

And Norway in particular has the advantage of a highly lucrative oil industry funneling large amounts of money into the nation, combined with a small, relatively homogeneous population typical of Scandinavian countries.

 

[dudalb]

I think the political structures are still strong enough that it won't descend that far in four years, but Trump and his supporters will make a damned good try at it; and we're likely looking at another serious economic downturn as the US loses the political and economic confidence of the rest of the world.

I think that Trump is lot more toxic to voters in the general election then you think,but I agree that Trump would be a total disaster...not just for the US,but for the World in general. The damage he would do would spread a long ways beyond the American borders..something that some people in Europe here who seem to want a Trump victory so they can laugh at those stupid Americans should think about.

 

[Childlike Empress]

I know I'm going to be accused of a middle-ground fallacy here; but I don't think the situation is as black-and-white as criminal psychopath vs. conspiracy theory.

There is definitely indication that she has been rather cavalier with many of her actions involving intelligence and security; though the investigation for at least one of those actions is still ongoing. And she has supported some rather questionable actions by the US government, including the Iraq war and ongoing drone strikes in the Middle East, which some seem to believe would be enough to qualify her as a war criminal (which same can be said about the last two presidents and most of Congress at this point). How much of that is deliberate, how much is incompetence, and how much is just blowing with the political wind remains to be seen.

Here's an article I just came across today about "The US Role in the Honduras Coup and Subsequent Violence". Please read. It mainly deals with Clinton, who, against the will of even expressively non-dovish advisers like Ann-Marie Slaughter, worked hard to prop up a military coup dictatorship led by a guy who learned his treats at the infamous "School of the Americas", and when later people started to flee from the regime's harrassment, she refused them asylum. Not in the 80s, in 2009.

She is just a totally ruthless person, a true psychopath.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I will continue to support Senator Sanders' campaign until the point he tries to tell me that it is in his supporters' best interest to support some other Democratic nominee. Likewise, I will continue to send his campaign the same monthly donations I have for the last seven months and continue to urge family, friends, and neighbors here in the Western States to support and vote for him in our primaries and caucuses (even though it is mostly preaching to the choir amongst that crowd). Beyond that, we'll have to see how things unfold, Dr. Stein might set some new third-party records!

PT Barnum comes to mind

 

[jhunter1163]

I think that Trump is lot more toxic to voters in the general election then you think,but I agree that Trump would be a total disaster...not just for the US,but for the World in general. The damage he would do would spread a long ways beyond the American borders..something that some people in Europe here who seem to want a Trump victory so they can laugh at those stupid Americans should think about.

Indeed. Fortunately, most recent polls show him losing by double digits to either Sanders or Clinton.

 

[dudalb]

Indeed. Fortunately, most recent polls show him losing by double digits to either Sanders or Clinton.

And we yet to see the damage that is going to be caused by a now inevitable split in the GOP.

Cleveland 2016 could be for the GOP like Chicago 1968 was to the Democrats:A convention that was such a fiasco that is badly damaged the campaign.

God,they might not get the Quicken Loans Pavililon repaired in time for the Cleveland Cavaliars season opener....

 

[luchog]

Here's an article I just came across today about "The US Role in the Honduras Coup and Subsequent Violence". Please read.

I've heard about the situation on NPR. However, to dump all this in Clinton's lap is rather excessive. The entire US government is complicit in the problem, and refusing to consider ending aid or otherwise taking action against the military junta. This is mainly because Honduras is our only remaining friendly ally in the region; and the US has a long and sordid history of backing insane dictators and brutal military regimes for our own gain. Hillary is hardly unique in that, pretty much every administration in recent history has its share of blood on their hands in that respect.

Yes, her actions were far from progressive, and help to worsen the situation there; but she's just one of many in that boat, and neither the Obama administration nor Congress is doing anything to change that situation.

What that does show is that she's the same conservative establishment politician that she's always been.

 

[Belz...]

"Social justice" is used on the Internet to troll people. That doesn't make it inherently bad.

Well, I think it's bad, because I don't believe in group justice. But it's a topic for another thread.

 

[Joey McGee]

And we yet to see the damage that is going to be caused by a now inevitable split in the GOP.

They are doing it to themselves, or I would feel worse for the Republican party supporters that aren't insane, just people I disagree philosophically, as McCain would have put it. Meghan McCain (daughter) said recently that she wakes up every morning horrified at what Trump has said next and is doing to her party. But her Dad says he is going to support Trump because to not support his party would be turning his back on the party of Abraham Lincoln. This is exactly the kind of reasoning that has allowed Trump to rise in their ranks in the first place. If they were more firm about rejecting lunacy in order to protect the party, they could have become more rational by forcing conversations about what is rational. But part of their tradition seems to be more about respecting individual views instead of trying to reach consensus. The anti-science bias, the anti-intellectual bias, this is all related. It's not about policing others "free speech" and "rights" it's about creating a culture of "peer-review" which should extend to politics. The far left takes this too far, to where it's all about shaming, they really haven't understood human nature, or what science is all about, and why this process is important. My view. And I'm sticking to it unless one of my peers tears it away from me, which I'd thank them for.

 

[Trakar]

Here's an article I just came across today about "The US Role in the Honduras Coup and Subsequent Violence". Please read. It mainly deals with Clinton, who, against the will of even expressively non-dovish advisers like Ann-Marie Slaughter, worked hard to prop up a military coup dictatorship led by a guy who learned his treats at the infamous "School of the Americas", and when later people started to flee from the regime's harrassment, she refused them asylum. Not in the 80s, in 2009.

She is just a totally ruthless person, a true psychopath.

It's not like this is news.

Honduras president arrested in military coup - Sunday 28 June 2009 11.41 EDT
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/jun/28/honduras-coup-president-zelaya

Honduran President Is Ousted in Coup - By ELISABETH MALKINJUNE 28, 2009
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/29/world/americas/29honduras.html

WikiLeaks Honduras: State Dept. Busted on Support of Coup - 11/29/2010 01:23 pm ET | Updated May 25, 2011 - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-naiman/wikileaks-honduras-state_b_789282.html

The Honduran Coup and the Clinton Connection - A pro-coup faction in the Obama administration - by Justin Raimondo, July 27, 2009
http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2009/07/26/the-honduran-coup-and-the-clinton-connection/

Hillary Clinton's Honduran Disgrace | The Progressive - Posted: March 5, 2010
http://www.progressive.org/wx030510.html

And don't get me wrong I fully understand why I (and others) don't like and will not support HRC. For me, it isn't about who is worse than who, it is about why and how I support Senator Sanders. I'd rather spend my time discussing my support For Sanders and more importantly, my support for his public policy agenda.

 

[Childlike Empress]

It's not like this is news. [...]

And don't get me wrong I fully understand why I (and others) don't like and will not support HRC. For me, it isn't about who is worse than who, it is about why and how I support Senator Sanders. I'd rather spend my time discussing my support For Sanders and more importantly, my support for his public policy agenda.

It wasn't news to me either but might be to certain confused victims of the "work" of third rate shills like Luke Harding, Shaun Walker and Martin Chulov.

In the brief radio interview with the author which led me to the article, the host and the author moan the fact that Bernie doesn't use opportunities like this even when they come up in these "debates". Which is really unfortunate and a bit difficult to explain.

 

[Joey McGee]

I can explain it, he doesn't drink the conspircist kool-aid.