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Buddhism and Responsibility

Harpyja

Irrepressible Buzzard
Harpyja
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
653
Hey, guys. I haven't been on here in a while, and I was wondering if some of you who are familiar with Buddhism can help me.

I have a friend who recently converted into what he calls Buddhism. I say "what he calls" because he has a nasty habit of cherry-picking only the things that he actually approves of from religions (he used to be Catholic and converted in college, through a process which I believe did not require much critical thought). I've caught him doing this with Christianity before, and I'm pretty much the only person who calls him out on his bull. He claims that the deterministic nature of Buddhism absolves him from personal responsibility and is using this basically as an excuse for not taking responsibility for his behavior (and, by extension, for not feeling guilty for not taking responsibility). I've been trying to do research into Buddhism myself, because what little I've found is pretty interesting, but I'm much more familiar with the Christian religions and, as I am a busy college Literature major, I'm kind of overwhelmed the sheer depth and scope of what I'm digging through.

I was wondering if there was anyone here more familiar with Buddhism and ethics that could give me a bit of a briefing as to where he's getting his ideas from and could direct me to where I can go online to learn more about the belief through a reputable, critical perspective.

:boxedin:
 
I used to do a fair amount of reading of Buddhism and zen and I personally don't recall any sense of determinism. I always found it to be practical and realistic.

The more I think about it, the more I think that Buddhism is quite the opposite of what your friend is believing.
 
It's hard to say something specific about Buddhism, because there are so many variations of it, so many different denominations, and they're all very different.

Most forms, though, are all about personal responsibility.
 
Given the importance of karma in Buddhism I don't see how personal responsibility can be thrown to the wayside.

Out of curiosity, what kinds of things is he refusing to take responsibility for?
 
You're going to need to get a bit more information about what type of Buddhism he is following. Buddhism is no more monolithic than Christianity and just like Christianity many of the sects can openly contradict each other.

Most Westerners are most familiar with Zen Buddhism. Zen is more of a philosophy than a religion but it focuses a great deal on awareness of your self and your environment. I have never heard of that sect being "deterministic," other than in the most basic cause and effect definition. As to morality from what I have read a Zen teacher would most likely be very forceful about a student taking responsibility for their own actions. Not taking responsibility for your own actions and decisions would most likely result in being struck with the Kyosaku, which I have heard translated as "clue stick".

Perhaps your friend is following one of the more esoteric sects? Or perhaps he has a poor teacher who has removed the morality lessons from his teachings?
 
Akri said:
Given the importance of karma in Buddhism I don't see how personal responsibility can be thrown to the wayside.

Out of curiosity, what kinds of things is he refusing to take responsibility for?
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Sexual assault while drunk, and the resulting unwanted pregnancy and miscarriage.
 
Ryokan said:
It's hard to say something specific about Buddhism, because there are so many variations of it, so many different denominations, and they're all very different.

Most forms, though, are all about personal responsibility.
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From what I understood from some of the more famous Buddha quotes, that was the case. However, I figured that Buddhism wasn't immune to the same sort of problems that Christianity had with quote-mining.

Hokulele said:
That pretty much sounds like anti-Buddhism to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Noble_Truths

Buddhism is almost entirely about personal responsibility, and I have no idea where he is getting the determinism idea from.
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With the cursory reading I did WorldCat's articles that were tagged with "buddhism" and "responsibility," some of the articles did seem to suggest some nature of determinism in Buddhism. It's going to take me a while to reserve the papers. I highly appreciate the link. I just wish I had access to original texts.

Weak Kitten said:
You're going to need to get a bit more information about what type of Buddhism he is following. Buddhism is no more monolithic than Christianity and just like Christianity many of the sects can openly contradict each other.

Most Westerners are most familiar with Zen Buddhism. Zen is more of a philosophy than a religion but it focuses a great deal on awareness of your self and your environment. I have never heard of that sect being "deterministic," other than in the most basic cause and effect definition. As to morality from what I have read a Zen teacher would most likely be very forceful about a student taking responsibility for their own actions. Not taking responsibility for your own actions and decisions would most likely result in being struck with the Kyosaku, which I have heard translated as "clue stick".

Perhaps your friend is following one of the more esoteric sects? Or perhaps he has a poor teacher who has removed the morality lessons from his teachings?
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Going to address this from the bottom down. I'm almost certain that he has a poor teacher and that he is a poor student - like I said previously, he cherry-picks the ever-loving hell out of any sort of religion he prescribes to, which is why I can't really tell you what he believes in. He did the same with Christianity, and he's doing it now with Buddhism. His support group behaves similarly. I'm not going to go into detail about the nature of his behavior here, but he's the typical irresponsible college student jacked up to eleven. (For example - when we were friends, he roped me into believing his amalgamation of garbage that he called a religion, and even considered forming a cult.)

He has severe psychological damage and he uses religion to justify his behavior when he can no longer blame anyone else. Which, of course, makes any argument that I make with him null - but, however, I want to approach the matter with him skeptically and intelligently. Who knows, I'll probably learn something new in the process.
 
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Harpyja said:
Sexual assault while drunk, and the resulting unwanted pregnancy and miscarriage.
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If that sort of thing was acceptable under Buddhism, I would instantly join yrreg in his fight against it.


So yeah, that's not condoned by any sect that I am aware of, although it isn't impossible someone came up with a version that allows it.
 
Hokulele said:
If that sort of thing was acceptable under Buddhism, I would instantly join yrreg in his fight against it.


So yeah, that's not condoned by any sect that I am aware of, although it isn't impossible someone came up with a version that allows it.
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It's not so much that he finds it acceptable under Buddhism, it's just that he feels like he shouldn't feel bad about it or take consequences for his actions, and that the victim should instead take responsibility for addressing their own psychological damage. The actions were committed when he was a Catholic, not a Buddhist, and his conversion took place shortly thereafter.

(Mind, this is also from someone who purports to be trying to make the world a better place.) :boggled:
 
Hm, I think I sorta see it in that last bit. So since a person can become enlightened and end their suffering no matter the circumstances, the person is responsible for the suffering he "causes"?
 
Harpyja said:
It's not so much that he finds it acceptable under Buddhism, it's just that he feels like he shouldn't feel bad about it or take consequences for his actions, and that the victim should instead take responsibility for addressing their own psychological damage. The actions were committed when he was a Catholic, not a Buddhist, and his conversion took place shortly thereafter.

(Mind, this is also from someone who purports to be trying to make the world a better place.) :boggled:
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Sorry to say, but he sounds like more than a fool. If he really wanted to change religions, he should have became a satanist.
 
Harpyja said:
It's not so much that he finds it acceptable under Buddhism, it's just that he feels like he shouldn't feel bad about it or take consequences for his actions, and that the victim should instead take responsibility for addressing their own psychological damage. The actions were committed when he was a Catholic, not a Buddhist, and his conversion took place shortly thereafter.

(Mind, this is also from someone who purports to be trying to make the world a better place.) :boggled:
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Sounds like he was pretty upset about what happened, so reached out to the first thing he found that promised to make it Not His Fault. Nevermind that's not what his chosen solace actually says, it's what he chooses to hear.

And good luck convincing him otherwise. Solipsistic assurement and outright blanking anything that says otherwise are religions' biggest strengths.
 
It would appear that this gentleman might want to spend some more time on right view, right intention, right action, right effort, and right mindfulness?
 
Since he sexually assaulted someone, I wouldn't bother trying to change his point of view or challenging his claims. Either drop him as a friend, or punch him in the face, and then drop him as a friend.
 
godless dave said:
Since he sexually assaulted someone, I wouldn't bother trying to change his point of view or challenging his claims. Either drop him as a friend, or punch him in the face, and then drop him as a friend.
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Totally agree with you 100%. Currently in the process of doing the latter.

Beelzebuddy said:
Sounds like he was pretty upset about what happened, so reached out to the first thing he found that promised to make it Not His Fault. Nevermind that's not what his chosen solace actually says, it's what he chooses to hear.

And good luck convincing him otherwise. Solipsistic assurement and outright blanking anything that says otherwise are religions' biggest strengths.
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Oh, yeah, almost certain of it. And I'm not so much attempting to convince him as to use this as one more example of him being dishonest and deceitful.
 
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