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Bride dies on wedding day stabbed 20 times ruled a suicide.

plague311 said:
It's not chatter. It's a ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ description of the difference in post and antemortem wounds. Did you just come here to bitch? Is that your main thing now? If you want actual experts then read the ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ thread. I've linked to the ME saying one of the wounds was postmortem, I've linked to technology showing one of the wounds was impossible to inflict by herself, and the way the investigation and process has been run is highly suspicious.

If you have something to add, then add it. If not, feel free to go cry somewhere else. You obviously have nothing of value to bring to the table.
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Yes, you have linked to the ME's description and interpretation of the wounds, and yes, you have linked to other sources that make a very convincing argument that it is unreasonable to conclude that the fatal wounds were self-inflicted. These were useful.

Having done that, you have then prompted ChatGPT to chatsplain the difference between pre and post mortem wounds. This was not useful. ChatGPT and other LLM AIs are known to hallucinate (make ◊◊◊◊ up). Until this weakness is solved, They are not, in my opinion, a valid or reliable source for any infomation.

My argument (and maybe it was poorly made) was that citing the result that ChatGPT was prompted to make added nothing of value to the conversation.


Oh, and just for the record, I will cry wherever and whenever the the ◊◊◊◊ I feel like it.
 
junkshop said:
Yes, you have linked to the ME's description and interpretation of the wounds, and yes, you have linked to other sources that make a very convincing argument that it is unreasonable to conclude that the fatal wounds were self-inflicted. These were useful.

Having done that, you have then prompted ChatGPT to chatsplain the difference between pre and post mortem wounds. This was not useful. ChatGPT and other LLM AIs are known to hallucinate (make ◊◊◊◊ up). Until this weakness is solved, They are not, in my opinion, a valid or reliable source for any infomation.
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Yet pretty much spot on in this instance, as it was largely summarizing medical texts. AI, like Wikipedia, gets better with more user interaction. Plague is doing his part to advance the technology in a pretty low-stakes casual discussion. We all win.
 
junkshop said:
Yes, you have linked to the ME's description and interpretation of the wounds, and yes, you have linked to other sources that make a very convincing argument that it is unreasonable to conclude that the fatal wounds were self-inflicted. These were useful.

Having done that, you have then prompted ChatGPT to chatsplain the difference between pre and post mortem wounds. This was not useful.
ChatGPT and other LLM AIs are known to hallucinate (make ◊◊◊◊ up). Until this weakness is solved, They are not, in my opinion, a valid or reliable source for any infomation.
My argument (and maybe it was poorly made) was that citing the result that ChatGPT was prompted to make added nothing of value to the conversation.


Oh, and just for the record, I will cry wherever and whenever the the ◊◊◊◊ I feel like it.
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As are humans.
 
Darat said:
As are humans.
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Yeah. It's close to the old ad hominem fallacy. "If it comes from AI we can just dismiss it out of hand with no further reason."

plague311 said:
I've linked to the ME saying one of the wounds was postmortem, I've linked to technology showing one of the wounds was impossible to inflict by herself, and the way the investigation and process has been run is highly suspicious.
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Here's something that is still bothering me about the medical examiner: If the medical examiner is the one who initially said that one of the stabs was "postmortem" but then the same medical examiner later changed his mind and ruled it a suicide, what should we make of that? We have accounts of accounts of someone who ultimately ruled it a suicide, and I haven't yet heard them explain why. The police seem to have taken a position of "we won't say anything in public because there is an ongoing investigation and also we're being sued." I would like to hear their side of the story, but I haven't seen it yet.
 
junkshop said:
Having done that, you have then prompted ChatGPT to chatsplain the difference between pre and post mortem wounds. This was not useful. ChatGPT and other LLM AIs are known to hallucinate (make ◊◊◊◊ up). Until this weakness is solved, They are not, in my opinion, a valid or reliable source for any infomation.

My argument (and maybe it was poorly made) was that citing the result that ChatGPT was prompted to make added nothing of value to the conversation.
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I don't know what chatgpt did to hurt you, but if you want to talk about it chatgpt has some great ways to help I'd bet.

I wasn't using it as some definitive answer to anything. It was just a few ways used to determine if a wound is ante or post mortem. That's it. I even hid it in a spoiler to help you avoid having to suffer the, obvious, severe pain and trauma of dealing with such hallucination prone explanations. Even though you didn't actually prove that anything was incorrect. I know how hallucinations work in AI, I have to check powershell scripts multiple times for errors when I have chatgpt make them and have found a few errors. Not many however.

junkshop said:
Oh, and just for the record, I will cry wherever and whenever the the ◊◊◊◊ I feel like it.
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Obviously.

Puppycow said:
Here's something that is still bothering me about the medical examiner: If the medical examiner is the one who initially said that one of the stabs was "postmortem" but then the same medical examiner later changed his mind and ruled it a suicide, what should we make of that?
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Solid question, it came after a meeting with the police. Either the police are sitting on information that proves she killed herself and aren't sharing it, or they're covering something up. Whether that be for the person who did it or just covering up a sloppy, terrible investigation that led to letting a killer off scott free.

Puppycow said:
We have accounts of accounts of someone who ultimately ruled it a suicide, and I haven't yet heard them explain why. The police seem to have taken a position of "we won't say anything in public because there is an ongoing investigation and also we're being sued." I would like to hear their side of the story, but I haven't seen it yet.
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But they aren't really saying there's an ongoing investigation. In fact, they've said the exact opposite. They've said the case is closed as a suicide and no futher investigation is needed.

The parents are suing to get the evidence and property of their daughter released. That's to say, the PD is being sued because they aren't a) explaining how they came to the conclusion or b) releasing all of the evidence so the family can get their daughters' possession back. They are perfectly free to explain their side of the story. There is absolutely nothing holding them back at all.
 
Darat said:
Long article that takes you through all the problems of the investigation:

edition.cnn.com

She had 20 knife wounds and at least 11 bruises. Authorities said she killed herself

Ellen Greenberg was found dead in 2011 in her Philadelphia apartment with a knife in her chest. Despite contradictory evidence, her death was ruled a suicide. Years later, her parents are still fighting to find the truth.
edition.cnn.com edition.cnn.com
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I got about halfway through it. I'll finish it up tonight, but basically what I've read from other places so far. I think it was a coverup and I don't know that there's much I can be told that would change my mind.
 
This case is being reopened....again. I doubt much will come from it but here are some of the details:

...the family of Ellen Greenberg and Philadelphia officials reached an agreement to reopen the teacher's death investigation more than 14 years after she was found stabbed to death in her Manayunk apartment.
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The medical examiner who ruled Greenberg's 2011 death a homicide, then later suicide, in recent days released a new legal verification stating that he now believes the case should be ruled as "something other than suicide
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The 27-year-old first-grade teacher had suffered 20 stab wounds......including 10 to the back of her neck.
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Then in November 2024, the Chester County District Attorney’s Office announced that they could not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a crime was committed and the investigation was placed as inactive.
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Source

I am quite honestly baffled at how a person can stab themselves 10 times in the ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ neck and have it ruled a suicide, but apparently there has to be a huge piece of evidence that I'm missing. Like perhaps she made a machine with a knife attached to it that would just repeatedly make a stabbing motion and she just walked into it or something? I have no ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ clue but perhaps something will come from this.
 
What does “something other than suicide” mean? “Accident” must be the alternative, if murder does not spring to mind. After all, it could happen to anyone, right?
 
Yes, like accidentally being struck by a falling gargoyle while swimming off Beachy Head, or slipping and falling backwards on to the spire of Norwich Cathedral
 
plague311 said:
This case is being reopened....again. I doubt much will come from it but here are some of the details:



Source

I am quite honestly baffled at how a person can stab themselves 10 times in the ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ neck and have it ruled a suicide, but apparently there has to be a huge piece of evidence that I'm missing. Like perhaps she made a machine with a knife attached to it that would just repeatedly make a stabbing motion and she just walked into it or something? I have no ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ clue but perhaps something will come from this.
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I’m not at all up to speed on this, but one thing I remember from the David Kelly suicide is that the coroner said it looked like a typical suicide. There were multiple wounds on his wrist.

However, it turns out that often people who commit suicide will take time to summon up the courage to do it and will make a number of shallow lacerations until they finally go through with one that will kill them. Some of them could even be deep and not fatal, or even fatal but slow acting. So … I dunno. It’s not beyond the realm of possibility.
 
angrysoba said:
So … I dunno. It’s not beyond the realm of possibility.
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But:
including 10 to the back of her neck
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I totally get what you're saying and those cuts are really common in suicides. I can't remember the name but there is a name for those types of cuts, but this is to the back of her neck. That would be the absolute dumbest place to try and kill yourself given there are no arteries going through the back of the neck and I don't think severing her spinal cord was on her mind. If you're interested I would catch up on the case, it's pretty mind boggling.
 
plague311 said:
But:

I totally get what you're saying and those cuts are really common in suicides. I can't remember the name but there is a name for those types of cuts, but this is to the back of her neck. That would be the absolute dumbest place to try and kill yourself given there are no arteries going through the back of the neck and I don't think severing her spinal cord was on her mind. If you're interested I would catch up on the case, it's pretty mind boggling.
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Hesitation cuts.

Hesitation, or tentative, wounds are defined either as: any cut or wound that is self-inflicted after a decision is made not to commit suicide, or any tentative cut or wound that is made before the final cut that causes death. Such wounds are usually superficial, sharp, forced skin cuts found on the body of victims. These less severe cutting marks are often caused by attempts to build up courage before attempting the final, fatal wound.
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Hulu released a 3-part documentary about this case called Death in Apartment 603. At this point the parents are still trying to get more, and more attention to the case in hopes that someone at the state level will care. It's not going great so far, but the documentary is fresh and it really puts pressure on the people pulling the strings.

I have no idea if it was the boyfriend at the time, but I really ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ hate that guy. Hearing the 911 call from him makes my ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ skin crawl.
 
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