Bride dies on wedding day stabbed 20 times ruled a suicide.

[wasapi]

I will have to look this up but I just watched about a minute of the news where it was featured. Just wondering if anyone else saw this. 20 times. Defensive wounds. Suicide.

 

[Puppycow]

I'll help you out. I Googled a couple of news articles about this:

Case of woman stabbed 20 times, originally ruled suicide, has been reopened

One particular part stood out to me:

On Tuesday, the Pennsylvania Supreme Court agreed to listen to the family's appeal, specifically deciding whether or not "executors and administrators of an estate have standing to challenge an erroneous finding recorded on the decedent's death certificate..."

Ellen's parents' lawyer said the family was "elated" at the news, and was himself happy because incorrect death rulings affect how survivors and family members are allocated insurance money and victims funds.

This seems to be more about whether her family are entitled to insurance money and victims funds. Her family are certain that it wasn't suicide because they believe that she would never do such a thing. Well.

Here's another article:
Death of Ellen Greenberg, Teacher Stabbed 20 Times in Case Ruled Suicide, Now Reexamined After 11 Years

The parents of Ellen Greenberg, a beloved Pennsylvania schoolteacher found stabbed 20 times more than a decade ago, say they will not stop until authorities move beyond the suicide ruling. "We’re not gonna let this go," her father said.

 

[Puppycow]

Here's the Wikipedia article:

Death of Ellen Greenberg - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Just to clear up one point from the OP, I don't see any evidence that this crime (suicide/homicide/whatever it was) occurred "on her wedding day." Some news articles described her as a "bride to be" because she had a fiancé, who she lived with, and he's the one who found her body and called 911 to report it.

Her body was discovered by her fiancé, Samuel Goldberg, who returned from a gym to find their apartment deadbolted, and knocked down the door after trying for an hour to reach her. Based on the recording of the 911 call, he presumed her dead from self inflicted wounds before checking.[9]

 

[plague311]

This seems to be more about whether her family are entitled to insurance money and victims funds. Her family are certain that it wasn't suicide
because they believe that she would never do such a thing. Well.

This isn't true at all. They think it wasn't suicide because she was stabbed in the brain, neck and back. The initial ruling was a homicide by the ME but was then changed shortly after a meeting with the PD. Her fiance's uncle is a high ranking judge in PA, and, for some reason, he was allowed to remove her belongings from the crime scene (cell phone, laptop, etc.). The PD, despite ruling it a suicide, is also holding on to her journal and some other personal items. Why? If it's a closed case then the parents should be able to get those items.

This case reeks of sketchy ◊◊◊◊. There was apparently photogrammetry, which wasn't available at the time, that was done that showed she literally couldn't have inflicted at least 1 of the wounds. Also a report at the time of at least 1 stab wound being inflicted postmortem.

I don't know their financial situation but they certainly don't seem to be living paycheck to paycheck. You kind of seem to be implying the parents are just after some money, when in actuality it appears that any money they get would be towered over by the amount they're spending to get to the truth.

 

[Puppycow]

Her fiance's uncle is a high ranking judge in PA, and, for some reason, he was allowed to remove her belongings from the crime scene (cell phone, laptop, etc.).

Well, I provided three links and I don't see where any of them say anything about her fiance's uncle being involved in any way. I went back and re-read them just to be sure. It seems highly unusual that a judge would be involved in investigating a crime scene. The only things I know about this case are what I found with a couple Google searches. Please provide the links to back up what you're saying.

I'll happily admit that there's possibly more to it because I'm not married to any particular conclusion. Apparently the Philadelphia Inquirer published an investigative report, but it seems to be paywalled, so I haven't read it.

 

[plague311]

Well, I provided three links and I don't see where any of them say anything about her fiance's uncle being involved in any way. I went back and re-read them just to be sure. It seems highly unusual that a judge would be involved in investigating a crime scene. The only things I know about this case are what I found with a couple Google searches. Please provide the links to back up what you're saying.

I'll happily admit that there's possibly more to it because I'm not married to any particular conclusion. Apparently the Philadelphia Inquirer published an investigative report, but it seems to be paywalled, so I haven't read it.

This one is from Fox News:

Her parents want to know why her fiancé's prominent judge uncle was allowed to remove a number of items from the scene.

....

A representative for James Schwartzman, Ellen's fiancé Sam Goldberg's uncle and a distinguished judge in Pennsylvania, responded to these claims on his behalf, saying police gave him permission to go in and take Ellen's belongings. He denied removing Ellen's handbag, but he admitted to removing her computers and cellphones.

I'm generally not a huge fan of Fox News but it quotes a representative from the judge confirming that he entered the apartment and removed items. Just as a quick correction though, he wasn't involved in "investigating" the crime scene. The police, for some reason, released the crime scene relatively quickly and the judge went in and grabbed those items. His excuse was that they could be stolen, but for some reason he didn't grab any of his own nephews electronics...or jewelry...or anything like that. Just, oddly, the cellphones and computers.

That's not the biggest thing to me though, the biggest thing is the evidence available that says she couldn't have stabbed herself but for some reason no one seems interested in digging further.

 

[Puppycow]

This one is from Fox News:



I'm generally not a huge fan of Fox News but it quotes a representative from the judge confirming that he entered the apartment and removed items. Just as a quick correction though, he wasn't involved in "investigating" the crime scene. The police, for some reason, released the crime scene relatively quickly and the judge went in and grabbed those items. His excuse was that they could be stolen, but for some reason he didn't grab any of his own nephews electronics...or jewelry...or anything like that. Just, oddly, the cellphones and computers.

That's not the biggest thing to me though, the biggest thing is the evidence available that says she couldn't have stabbed herself but for some reason no one seems interested in digging further.

I see. It's hard to understand what the police were doing. The headline for that story is "Judge tied to Ellen Greenberg's fiancé took items from her 'suicide' scene before police search". So they "released the crime scene" before conducting a search?

Lots of questions, including if this happened in 2011, why are we only hearing about it now, 13 years later?

As far as whether she could have stabbed herself or not, it does seem rather far-fetched as a suicide. On the other hand, if the apartment was locked with a deadbolt from the inside, and nobody was there, who else could have done it? (Maybe it wasn't? was there a window or any other less obvious way to enter and leave the apartment?)

I'm always a little bit reticent to second-guess a police investigation because I'm just a casual outside observer, and I assume that I don't have all the facts that they do.

 

[Puppycow]

This is pretty crazy:

Melissa Ware, the former property manager of Ellen's apartment building, previously spoke to Fox Nation about receiving a call from someone who she believed was Schwartzman at the time.

"I received a call from someone in Sam's family. I think it might have been the uncle. They wanted to come to the apartment to get a few personal effects for the funeral. I immediately called the police to see what I could or couldn't do, and they told me that there was no problem letting them in; it was no longer a crime scene," Ware said.

"And then I asked, ‘Well, what is the condition of the apartment look like?’ because I hadn't been inside, 'and is there someone that could clean it up? And they said that it's something they didn't do," Ware continued. "I asked for a recommendation. They gave me a crime scene cleanup."

She called the company, which arrived to wipe out the scene the day before police came back with a search warrant, according to the Greenberg family's lawyer, Joe Podraza, and appellate court documents. The knife found in Greenberg's chest was never fingerprinted, and a second possible weapon was never recovered. Investigators didn't use the blood-detecting chemical luminol to examine the scene.

So the police told the property manager that it was OK to have a crime scene cleanup company come to clean up the crime scene, and then they came back with a search warrant the following day? Again, I'm just a casual observer, but something seems wrong with that. Also, not fingerprinting the knife, at a minimum. Since her fiance lived there, his fingerprints might be all over the crime scene including on that knife, even if he's not guilty. But what if there was some third person's prints on it?

 

[plague311]

I see. It's hard to understand what the police were doing. The headline for that story is "Judge tied to Ellen Greenberg's fiancé took items from her 'suicide' scene before police search". So they "released the crime scene" before conducting a search?

With your post after this do you get what they were saying? The property manager gave him access before the search warrant was executed. It's poor phrasing, assuredly, but it makes sense. (ETA: I read your statement awkwardly. I believe we're on the same page.)

Lots of questions, including if this happened in 2011, why are we only hearing about it now, 13 years later?

How much did you read about it when it happened? This thread didn't even pop up until now. We probably wouldn't have heard about it at all if it weren't for the parents continuously seeking justice.

As far as whether she could have stabbed herself or not, it does seem rather far-fetched as a suicide. On the other hand, if the apartment was locked with a deadbolt from the inside, and nobody was there, who else could have done it? (Maybe it wasn't? was there a window or any other less obvious way to enter and leave the apartment?)

We're kind of taking the fiance's word for it here rather than any actual evidence. The boyfriend could have come in, locked the deadbolt from outside with his key, kicked the door in to make it look like it was locked from the inside. I mean, he kicks the door in rather than going to property management to let him in? He said "after a few hours", meaning he waited a few hours before going in. Did he try calling property management? As you said, we don't have all of the information but how did they verify he was at the gym vs when he found the body? There are always red flags in my mind when we heavily rely on the statements made by the person that found the body.

Also, it's not just that it seems far fetched, it's that it was reported at the time that one of the stab wounds was inflicted postmortem. That's beyond far fetched, that's impossible. Couple that with the fact that the photogrammetry showed one of the stab wounds was impossible for her to inflict in herself, and there's obviously something not right here.

I'm always a little bit reticent to second-guess a police investigation because I'm just a casual outside observer, and I assume that I don't have all the facts that they do.

Wow, we greatly differ there. The fact we don't have all of the information, all of the evidence hasn't been released despite it being a closed case (according to the police), and that most things I've read at this point (being stabbed in the brain, being stabbed after being dead, being stabbed in a way she couldn't have inflicted) and, at best, we're looking at a police department refusing to admit they did a ◊◊◊◊ investigation and now someone got away with murder.

 

[Thermal]

This one is a fairly local story around here, and no one seems to talk or report about it much. It should be full tilt outrage fuel.

They make a big deal of her being deadbolted in, but shouldn't that just mean someone had (or took an extra) key and locked up behind them? I totally don't get how you stab yourself to death from behind and deliver post mortem stabs in a suicide, with a straight face.

ETA: not sure why the fiancee that purportedly discovered her body and kicked in the door and told 911 that she stabbed herself was let off the suspect hook so quickly. The only reason they think she was deadbolted in was his say-so. He could easily have kicked the door in and murdered her himself?

 

[plague311]

This one is a fairly local story around here, and no one seems to talk or report about it much. It should be full tilt outrage fuel.

They make a big deal of her being deadbolted in, but shouldn't that just mean someone had (or took an extra) key and locked up behind them? I totally don't get how you stab yourself to death from behind and deliver post mortem stabs in a suicide, with a straight face.

Exactly. I'm equally bothered by a) the fact it was ruled a homicide, then changed to a suicide after a meeting with police b) the evidence showing that it obviously wasn't a suicide and c) the fact that the PD, ME and prosecutors are not explaining themselves. If nothing else at least tell the public what evidence you're looking at that's convinced you it was a suicide.

 

[Thermal]

Exactly. I'm equally bothered by a) the fact it was ruled a homicide, then changed to a suicide after a meeting with police b) the evidence showing that it obviously wasn't a suicide and c) the fact that the PD, ME and prosecutors are not explaining themselves. If nothing else at least tell the public what evidence you're looking at that's convinced you it was a suicide.

Yeah, I hate to be all conspiratorial but I'd put some money on police warning people to stfu on this one. It should be major protest o'clock over this one, and for years now.

 

[Puppycow]

Wow, we greatly differ there. The fact we don't have all of the information, all of the evidence hasn't been released despite it being a closed case (according to the police), and that most things I've read at this point (being stabbed in the brain, being stabbed after being dead, being stabbed in a way she couldn't have inflicted) and, at best, we're looking at a police department refusing to admit they did a ◊◊◊◊ investigation and now someone got away with murder.

Maybe this is naive of me, but I always seem to expect the police to be more professional and competent than it turns out they actually are.
Now it's like they are more concerned with covering their own asses and not admitting that they made inexcusable mistakes than with actually bringing a killer to justice.

Now, as far as whether there was actually a "post-mortem stab" or not, I'm not an expert in forensics or how they could distinguish one from another and also be 100% sure about it. I haven't seen the actual body. I'm just saying that I take such assertions with a grain of salt since I don't know how solid the basis for them actually is. (By "grain of salt" I mean agnostic until I know more.)

 

[Thermal]

A postortem stab is one that doesn't show blood flow out of it, right? Because the heart wasn't beating anymore?

 

[Puppycow]

A postortem stab is one that doesn't show blood flow out of it, right? Because the heart wasn't beating anymore?

That's probably correct.

 

[plague311]

Now, as far as whether there was actually a "post-mortem stab" or not, I'm not an expert in forensics or how they could distinguish one from another and also be 100% sure about it. I haven't seen the actual body. I'm just saying that I take such assertions with a grain of salt since I don't know how solid the basis for them actually is. (By "grain of salt" I mean agnostic until I know more.)

I do not mean this insultingly, but while you're not an expert, the ME is and they were the ones that initially said it was postmortem. Wounds (gun shot, stabbing, beating) postmortem have been provable for a good long while now. I'm also not basing my complaints on theory but on the actual technology and evidence presented in the case. I trust technology more than the police department and it's not even close. The technology is saying that it wasn't suicide. At the very least I don't think it's too much to ask for the police to explain why they think it's a suicide and provide the public with the entire picture, including the evidence collected. They're obviously not going to proceed with the case, they've said as much. Why can't the public see the evidence in a closed case?

 

[crescent]

A postortem stab is one that doesn't show blood flow out of it, right? Because the heart wasn't beating anymore?

It would depend upon the location. The blood would still flow with gravity. Think of a hunter that hangs the fresh deer carcass head down and then makes cuts in the neck to drain the blood.

 

[plague311]

Here is what ChatGPT told me as far as determining if it's post or ante. I'll put it in spoilers because it's really long and I don't want to pollute the thread.

Determining whether a stab wound is postmortem (after death) or antemortem (before death) is crucial in forensic pathology and involves analyzing several factors. Here’s how a forensic pathologist might differentiate between the two:

1.​

• Antemortem Stab Wound: If the wound occurred while the person was alive, there will be evidence of vital reactionssuch as:
  • Hemorrhage: Blood present around the wound and in tissues, as the heart was still pumping at the time of injury.
  • Inflammation: The wound may show signs of inflammation (redness, swelling) as the body attempts to heal.
  • Clotted Blood: Blood surrounding the wound will typically be clotted and red (unless it’s been a long time since the injury).
  • Tissue Damage: There might be bruising or damage to underlying tissues, and you may see the classic signs of a sharp-force trauma, such as clean-cut edges.
• Postmortem Stab Wound: In a postmortem injury, the body is no longer circulating blood, so:
  • Lack of Hemorrhage: There will be no blood flow, so the wound will have little or no bleeding, especially on the external surface.
  • No Inflammation: The body can't mount an immune response since it is no longer alive, so no inflammation will be present around the wound.
  • Dry Appearance: The wound edges may be dry, and any blood present will likely have coagulated and dried, as there’s no circulation to carry fresh blood.

2.​

• Antemortem Stab Wound:
  • Tissue Reaction: There is often a visible reaction from the surrounding tissues, like bruising or tearing in the skin. You may see a wound track where the tissue has been pushed or displaced.
  • Wound Edges: The edges of an antemortem stab wound are typically sharp and show signs of cutting.
  • Puncture Depth: If the wound is deep, the tissue surrounding it may show signs of distortion.
• Postmortem Stab Wound:
  • Clean and Smooth Edges: Postmortem wounds are often much cleaner, with no significant tissue distortion. The tissue is more fragile after death and may tear easily, so there might be less resistance as the weapon penetrates, resulting in cleaner edges.
  • No Tissue Displacement: As there’s no muscle contraction or blood flow, postmortem wounds may lack the tissue displacement seen in living individuals.

3.​

• Antemortem Stab Wound: If the wound was inflicted while the person was alive, they may have tried to defend themselves or react to the attack. The location of the wound may indicate defensive wounds or be consistent with the victim's attempt to escape or protect vital organs.
• Postmortem Stab Wound: Postmortem wounds may appear anywhere on the body, and there is no resistance from living tissue. Sometimes, postmortem wounds are inflicted in areas that would have been difficult for a person to reach on their own (e.g., the back). They may also be more numerous if the body was being "processed" or mutilated after death.

4.​

• Antemortem Stab Wound: A living person would react to the pain of the stab wound, and their muscles would tense, potentially causing a different pattern of injury or even moving away from the stabber, depending on the circumstances.
• Postmortem Stab Wound: After death, the body undergoes rigor mortis, causing muscles to stiffen. If the body is in rigor, the muscles won't contract, and the body will not react to the stab in the way a living body would, which might influence the appearance of the stab wound.

5.​

• Antemortem Stab Wound: If a wound is antemortem, you might see signs of partial healing. For example, the edges might be rough, and scabbing or new tissue growth could be present, indicating that the body was attempting to heal the injury.
• Postmortem Stab Wound: No healing will take place in postmortem wounds. They will appear fresh with no scabbing, granulation tissue, or evidence of the body's natural healing process.

6.​

• Scene Investigation: The location and context of the wound play an important role. If the wound is inflicted in an environment where the victim would not have had time to react (e.g., in a scene suggesting a sudden or unexpected attack), it might suggest antemortem injury. On the other hand, wounds inflicted in unusual or inaccessible areas might suggest postmortem injury.

7.​

• Antemortem Stab Wound: The victim may still be alive, and the wound may show some natural response (like bleeding, bruising, or infection).
• Postmortem Stab Wound: If the body has begun to decompose, the wound edges may appear swollen or distorted due to tissue breakdown, and there may be no clotting present, depending on the length of time since death.

8.​

• A forensic pathologist with expertise in sharp force trauma can usually distinguish between postmortem and antemortem wounds by combining these factors—vital reactions, wound characteristics, tissue responses, and the overall condition of the body.

In conclusion, determining whether a stab wound is postmortem involves careful examination of the wound itself, surrounding tissue responses, and the overall condition of the body. It’s a nuanced process that relies on the expertise of forensic professionals who consider multiple biological and contextual clues.

 

[junkshop]

Here is what ChatGPT told me as far as determining if it's post or ante. I'll put it in spoilers because it's really long and I don't want to pollute the thread.

Determining whether a stab wound is postmortem (after death) or antemortem (before death) is crucial in forensic pathology and involves analyzing several factors. Here’s how a forensic pathologist might differentiate between the two:

1.​

• Antemortem Stab Wound: If the wound occurred while the person was alive, there will be evidence of vital reactionssuch as:
  • Hemorrhage: Blood present around the wound and in tissues, as the heart was still pumping at the time of injury.
  • Inflammation: The wound may show signs of inflammation (redness, swelling) as the body attempts to heal.
  • Clotted Blood: Blood surrounding the wound will typically be clotted and red (unless it’s been a long time since the injury).
  • Tissue Damage: There might be bruising or damage to underlying tissues, and you may see the classic signs of a sharp-force trauma, such as clean-cut edges.
• Postmortem Stab Wound: In a postmortem injury, the body is no longer circulating blood, so:
  • Lack of Hemorrhage: There will be no blood flow, so the wound will have little or no bleeding, especially on the external surface.
  • No Inflammation: The body can't mount an immune response since it is no longer alive, so no inflammation will be present around the wound.
  • Dry Appearance: The wound edges may be dry, and any blood present will likely have coagulated and dried, as there’s no circulation to carry fresh blood.

2.​

• Antemortem Stab Wound:
  • Tissue Reaction: There is often a visible reaction from the surrounding tissues, like bruising or tearing in the skin. You may see a wound track where the tissue has been pushed or displaced.
  • Wound Edges: The edges of an antemortem stab wound are typically sharp and show signs of cutting.
  • Puncture Depth: If the wound is deep, the tissue surrounding it may show signs of distortion.
• Postmortem Stab Wound:
  • Clean and Smooth Edges: Postmortem wounds are often much cleaner, with no significant tissue distortion. The tissue is more fragile after death and may tear easily, so there might be less resistance as the weapon penetrates, resulting in cleaner edges.
  • No Tissue Displacement: As there’s no muscle contraction or blood flow, postmortem wounds may lack the tissue displacement seen in living individuals.

3.​

• Antemortem Stab Wound: If the wound was inflicted while the person was alive, they may have tried to defend themselves or react to the attack. The location of the wound may indicate defensive wounds or be consistent with the victim's attempt to escape or protect vital organs.
• Postmortem Stab Wound: Postmortem wounds may appear anywhere on the body, and there is no resistance from living tissue. Sometimes, postmortem wounds are inflicted in areas that would have been difficult for a person to reach on their own (e.g., the back). They may also be more numerous if the body was being "processed" or mutilated after death.

4.​

• Antemortem Stab Wound: A living person would react to the pain of the stab wound, and their muscles would tense, potentially causing a different pattern of injury or even moving away from the stabber, depending on the circumstances.
• Postmortem Stab Wound: After death, the body undergoes rigor mortis, causing muscles to stiffen. If the body is in rigor, the muscles won't contract, and the body will not react to the stab in the way a living body would, which might influence the appearance of the stab wound.

5.​

• Antemortem Stab Wound: If a wound is antemortem, you might see signs of partial healing. For example, the edges might be rough, and scabbing or new tissue growth could be present, indicating that the body was attempting to heal the injury.
• Postmortem Stab Wound: No healing will take place in postmortem wounds. They will appear fresh with no scabbing, granulation tissue, or evidence of the body's natural healing process.

6.​

• Scene Investigation: The location and context of the wound play an important role. If the wound is inflicted in an environment where the victim would not have had time to react (e.g., in a scene suggesting a sudden or unexpected attack), it might suggest antemortem injury. On the other hand, wounds inflicted in unusual or inaccessible areas might suggest postmortem injury.

7.​

• Antemortem Stab Wound: The victim may still be alive, and the wound may show some natural response (like bleeding, bruising, or infection).
• Postmortem Stab Wound: If the body has begun to decompose, the wound edges may appear swollen or distorted due to tissue breakdown, and there may be no clotting present, depending on the length of time since death.

8.​

• A forensic pathologist with expertise in sharp force trauma can usually distinguish between postmortem and antemortem wounds by combining these factors—vital reactions, wound characteristics, tissue responses, and the overall condition of the body.

In conclusion, determining whether a stab wound is postmortem involves careful examination of the wound itself, surrounding tissue responses, and the overall condition of the body. It’s a nuanced process that relies on the expertise of forensic professionals who consider multiple biological and contextual clues.

YMMV, but I don't give a flying ◊◊◊◊ what random internet chatter ChatGPT has collated, averaged out and then regurgitated. This would be a situation where actual expertise would be infinitely more useful.

 

[plague311]

YMMV, but I don't give a flying ◊◊◊◊ what random internet chatter ChatGPT has collated, averaged out and then regurgitated. This would be a situation where actual expertise would be infinitely more useful.

It's not chatter. It's a ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ description of the difference in post and antemortem wounds. Did you just come here to bitch? Is that your main thing now? If you want actual experts then read the ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ thread. I've linked to the ME saying one of the wounds was postmortem, I've linked to technology showing one of the wounds was impossible to inflict by herself, and the way the investigation and process has been run is highly suspicious.

If you have something to add, then add it. If not, feel free to go cry somewhere else. You obviously have nothing of value to bring to the table.