CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
Brexit: the referendum
- Thread starter MikeG
- Start date
ComfySlippers
Banned
Quite possibly Griff Rhys Jones.
What long memories we have.
Correct.
And.... Correct.
Also responsible for:
and:
I could go on, but I sense a NTNON binge approaching.
Henri McPhee
Illuminator
That plonker Cameron has just said that there will have to be cuts to the State pension and the scrapping of bus passes, and more cuts and closures to the Health Service if there is a Brexit. The trouble is it will probably not be much better if the Brexiteers win, who only seem to want spending cuts to pay off the National debt, and workhouse discipline for single mothers and the homeless.
There does seem to have been controversy in the past over signing off the accounts in the EU. Any whistleblowers who allege creative accountancy lose their jobs. Others categorically deny fraud and mismanagement, and say that any financial irregularities are kept to a minimum.
There is a bit about this at a website:
https://euobserver.com/news/126405
"While the figures are not surprising the Court of Auditors' report is a constant source of embarrassment for the EU institutions.
The European Commission is legally responsible for all EU spending, but it says its hands are tied since around 80 percent of spending is controlled and paid out locally by national governments and local authorities.
ECA president Vitor Caldeira laid most of the blame at the door of national governments. The error rate "would have been much lower in many areas" if governments "had done what they should have to prevent irregular reimbursement requests from being presented," he said.
He added that EU spending per citizen worked out at €290, of which €13 had been misspent.
However, Caldeira also called for a change in culture away from spending EU money for the sake of it. In a statement, the ECA said that "priority was given to spending the money - ‘use it or lose it’ - rather than to achieving good results".
"The choice of projects to receive EU funds focused first on disbursing the EU money available, secondly on complying with the rules," it added, which is a "fundamental flaw in the design of much of the EU budget".
"This is not peanuts", said Ingeborg Grassle, the German MEP who speaks for the centre-right EPP group on budgetary control. She added that a number of EU countries were continuing to "fleece the EU".
Ryszard Carnecki, a deputy in the conservative ECR group, commented that "European governments are largely to blame for these failures, but the commission is responsible for the budget and needs to get a grip."
For her part, Spanish centre-left MEP Ines Ayala Sender warned that the EU would face €26 billion of unpaid bills by the end of 2014 and needed to "find a solution to make sure that the EU does not commit itself above what it can pay".
There does seem to have been controversy in the past over signing off the accounts in the EU. Any whistleblowers who allege creative accountancy lose their jobs. Others categorically deny fraud and mismanagement, and say that any financial irregularities are kept to a minimum.
There is a bit about this at a website:
https://euobserver.com/news/126405
"While the figures are not surprising the Court of Auditors' report is a constant source of embarrassment for the EU institutions.
The European Commission is legally responsible for all EU spending, but it says its hands are tied since around 80 percent of spending is controlled and paid out locally by national governments and local authorities.
ECA president Vitor Caldeira laid most of the blame at the door of national governments. The error rate "would have been much lower in many areas" if governments "had done what they should have to prevent irregular reimbursement requests from being presented," he said.
He added that EU spending per citizen worked out at €290, of which €13 had been misspent.
However, Caldeira also called for a change in culture away from spending EU money for the sake of it. In a statement, the ECA said that "priority was given to spending the money - ‘use it or lose it’ - rather than to achieving good results".
"The choice of projects to receive EU funds focused first on disbursing the EU money available, secondly on complying with the rules," it added, which is a "fundamental flaw in the design of much of the EU budget".
"This is not peanuts", said Ingeborg Grassle, the German MEP who speaks for the centre-right EPP group on budgetary control. She added that a number of EU countries were continuing to "fleece the EU".
Ryszard Carnecki, a deputy in the conservative ECR group, commented that "European governments are largely to blame for these failures, but the commission is responsible for the budget and needs to get a grip."
For her part, Spanish centre-left MEP Ines Ayala Sender warned that the EU would face €26 billion of unpaid bills by the end of 2014 and needed to "find a solution to make sure that the EU does not commit itself above what it can pay".
If the Exiters win we'll be rid of Osborne as well as Cameron. Also we'll get to find out how accurate project fear's doom-laden predictions were.
The Remainers can't offer anything positive - just predictions of things getting worse if we leave. Of course there's no saying things will remain in the current "wonderful" state if we do vote to remain: once Brussels has us signed up for the next few years who knows what they will want to introduce?
The Remainers can't offer anything positive - just predictions of things getting worse if we leave. Of course there's no saying things will remain in the current "wonderful" state if we do vote to remain: once Brussels has us signed up for the next few years who knows what they will want to introduce?
Archie Gemmill Goal
Banned
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Isn't things not getting worse positive? I mean compared to actively campaigning for things to get worse at least?
Over on badscience, "liverpoolmiss" posted the following, in response to someone claiming that the solution was a right-wing burning of the red tape (that poster also disbelieves in global warming)
I'm not sure I'd agree with your "as it would be" there. I suspect there would be a recognition that cutting off the current reciprocal arrangements would hurt too many people, not least all the EU expats who live and work in the UK.
London is, by population, France's 9th largest city (or something like that) so I doubt if France would be too keen to see its citizens potentially harmed by a sudden withdrawal of reciprocal rights. Ditto other EU countries, I suspect. I reckon there would be a lengthy transitional period and quite possibly a "Ah, leave it like it is" deal.
But if we B's lost our Greek NHS rights we'd be well shagged. It's a worry.
Archie Gemmill Goal
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So the sensible approach to Brexit would be to just leave everything the way it is? I don't think that's on their leaflets.
So the Brexiters constant screaming about immigrants is positive is it? All Boris and co have offered are airy promises that somehow they will negotiate deals that will have all the benefits and none of the drawbacks of the current arrangements. the question is a simple one, do you think the Brexiters want to repatriate control of workers rights to strengthen them?
Well the Brexiters say they want to take democratic control of our borders - so if an elected government wants to allow lots of immigration they can, but if they want to reduce immigration they can do that too - they claim this is better than the current system with virtually zero control over the number of immigrants entering from Europe.
Then they also point out that we won't have to pay the contributions to belong to the EU anymore.
So that's two positive things right there.
The remainers counter these claims by predicting tarrifs leading to a reduction in GDP - but that's only a prediction (a negative one) and they might be wrong. Remain doesn't offer any hope about how remaining in the EU will make things better for us than they already are.
I do note that all those going on about increased democratic control seem quite happy to keep the unelected members of the House of Lords, and an unelected Head of State - but I suppose that's an argument for another time.
Then they also point out that we won't have to pay the contributions to belong to the EU anymore.
So that's two positive things right there.
The remainers counter these claims by predicting tarrifs leading to a reduction in GDP - but that's only a prediction (a negative one) and they might be wrong. Remain doesn't offer any hope about how remaining in the EU will make things better for us than they already are.
I do note that all those going on about increased democratic control seem quite happy to keep the unelected members of the House of Lords, and an unelected Head of State - but I suppose that's an argument for another time.
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
And how vacuous the Exiters promises of an easy transition are.
What would Brussels be intending to do to the UK do you think? We've been signed up for a very long time and they haven't done it yet, whatever it is.
If the UK does remain we can perhaps compare notes in a few years on what looming threats from the EU have actually transpired.
Brussels have gradually introduced more and more changes over the last forty years, changing the common market that we joined into a political union with a common currency, more member countries joining all the time and a gradual erosion of the sovereignty of member countries.
This is the whole reason for so many people wanting to leave it, and us being offered a referendum over it.
If the UK does leave we can perhaps compare notes in a few years on what looming threats from project fear have actually transpired.
See what I did there?
This is the whole reason for so many people wanting to leave it, and us being offered a referendum over it.
If the UK does leave we can perhaps compare notes in a few years on what looming threats from project fear have actually transpired.
See what I did there?
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
When asked how they would reduce immigration the Exiters have no answer.
Which is a trivial amount. If it wasn't the Exiters wouldn't have had to lie so blatantly about it.
What's positive about reduced immigration?
The Exiters have a positive prediction and it's entirely content-free. The UK will "Take Back Control" and have more sovereignty and fewer Turks, if any, and be Great again.
An unelected Head of State with family roots in half of Europe, while the next one has a Greek father. It's a funny old world.
Rubbish. They say they will introduce an Australian-style points system.
Even 100 million per week, which everyone can agree on, is hardly trivial.
Less pressure on housing, roads and transport, the NHS, schools. Less energy consumption, less polution. An increasing population density, when England and Wales are already very densely populated, is a bad thing all round.
Rubbish. That's just your bias showing.
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CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
The EU does not have a common currency, the expansion of the EU was a Thatcherite policy (it could go wider or deeper but not both, hence go wider) and it was the Blessed Margaret who declared national sovereignty an illusion - sovereignty lies with the free market.
The demographic split is rather telling, I think. Younger generations don't really notice the EU's pernicious influence on their lives, while older generations imagine they do.
Well, duh. It's a date then.
I do expect another financial crash in the next few years which will pretty much obscure all evidence of minor issues like this. The affairs of a small nuclear-armed island nation off the west coast of Eurasia won't amount to a hill of beans compared to that.
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
Rowed back as soon as uttered.
It really is.
The numbers involved are not that massive; these problems are deep-seated and would be there anyway. They're not going to be addressed by limiting population movements, which include internal migration.
Where's the content? Everything's slogans, airy promises, bent statistics, and Turks.
This writer argues that EU membership costs Britain more than it gains (the person responding doesn't make much of a counter-case):
http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/six-best-reasons-vote-leave/
http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/six-best-reasons-vote-leave/
Doghouse Reilly
Adrift on an uncharted sea
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"Leave" takes 19-point lead in latest poll. We shall see.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-...it-poll-if-it-happens-gold-will-be-worlds-str
ETA: ignore the gold bug nonsense...there's a link to the original article if you're not interested in the questionable financial commentary.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-...it-poll-if-it-happens-gold-will-be-worlds-str
ETA: ignore the gold bug nonsense...there's a link to the original article if you're not interested in the questionable financial commentary.
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