Brexit: the referendum

[Ambrosia]

The objection to being run by Krauts (and Frogs etc) is what drives the Brexit campaign.

All the other arguments are window dressing. It is xenophobia pure and simple.

I have little do do with any campaigns, but I ill be voting OUT come the referendum.

the world is becoming a smaller and more connected place, so I very much doubt that a lone UK is ever going to happen.

I'm voting out because I want the relationship between us and the EU to be fundamentally rewritten. Voting out is the only way that's going to happen, voting to remain just gives all of the present EU setup carte blanche to continue with the status quo.

I'd like to see a massive reduction in MEPs and a Europe that's basically a 'free trade area' with an optional currency (Euro) and the free movement of people within the EU to be made into a 'very easy' movement of most people within the EU.

imo Europe needs to become a full "Federal States of Europe" with a single centralised government, or Free Trade Area and not lots else. It's trying to do something between the two and isn't doing a good job of it.

 

[Craig B]

I have little do do with any campaigns, but I ill be voting OUT come the referendum. <snip> ...

imo Europe needs to become a full "Federal States of Europe" with a single centralised government, or Free Trade Area and not lots else. It's trying to do something between the two and isn't doing a good job of it.

If you have two alternative goals, both entailing membership of a European Union, does it make sense to vote to come out of the EU altogether? That will not achieve either of the (incompatible, by the way) solutions that would content you.

 

[Ambrosia]

If you have two alternative goals, both entailing membership of a European Union, does it make sense to vote to come out of the EU altogether? That will not achieve either of the (incompatible, by the way) solutions that would content you.

If a Federal Europe is A and a Free Trade Area is option B then voting out is more likely to bring about B than voting in, and A is never going to happen anyway.

I'm well aware that my A and B and opposite outcomes, FWIW.

I never paid the EU that much attention until running a vaping business. Recent EU legislation has made that untenable, but it's the way that the political process worked in the EU to draft the directive that opened my eyes to how bad the whole thing is and it needs scrapping and starting over.

I'd prefer B, I'd be OK with A but what we have now is terrible and I think that voting out is better in the long run.

 

[Lothian]

I'd like to see a massive reduction in MEPs and a Europe that's basically a 'free trade area' with an optional currency (Euro) and the free movement of people within the EU to be made into a 'very easy' movement of most people within the EU.

The Euro is already an optional currency for the UK, We opted not to use it but could opt in at any time.

Similarly the EU is already a free trade area. Goods in the EU are in free circulation and can cross internal borders tariff free. If we leave there is good change that will change and there will be tariffs unless we agree to the very easy movement of people which is something the out campaigners oppose. I understand this is to be the focus of their campaigning today.

Seems to me other than the MEPs we already have what you want and we would lose it on an out vote.

edited to add
Vaping products are subject to a 6.5% duty in the EU. Depending on the direction of trade your products will be more expensive for you to source or for your customers to buy.

 

[Ambrosia]

Seems to me other than the MEPs we already have what you want and we would lose it on an out vote.

Appearances can be deceptive.
Voting out will lose Free Trade in the short term, but in the longer term we'd renegotiate trade agreements as the UK is a pretty decent sized economy. I think that other EU nations would also look seriously at the EU if something like one of the members voting to leave it happened.

What we don't need is a lot of poorly drafted directives on how to conduct trade (and other stuff) imposed by the EU. The TPD and how it effects vaping is one small example of such.

What we don't need is a parliament of 750+ MEPs representing 28 countries.
Why does any country need more than about 10 representatives?

I do admit that voting the same way as Farage and his ilk makes me uncomfortable, but needs must.

 

[Craig B]

Why does any country need more than about 10 representatives?

Because it's an elected assembly and the 28 countries have different sized populations. "Under the Lisbon Treaty, seats are allocated to each state according to population ... "

 

[Information Analyst]

I never paid the EU that much attention until running a vaping business. Recent EU legislation has made that untenable, but it's the way that the political process worked in the EU to draft the directive that opened my eyes to how bad the whole thing is and it needs scrapping and starting over.

To be blunt, I would have thought it would have been fairly obvious that vaping/e-cigs/whatever were only going to enjoy so much of a honeymoon period. I wouldn't have wanted to start a long-term business based around them.

 

[Tolls]

What we don't need is a parliament of 750+ MEPs representing 28 countries.
Why does any country need more than about 10 representatives?

That's only 100 more MEPs than we have MPs in the commons, and fewer than the number in the House of Lords. All covering a population 8 times the size.

How would 10 people for the UK (for example) even be representative?

 

[Craig B]

That's only 100 more MEPs than we have MPs in the commons, and fewer than the number in the House of Lords. All covering a population 8 times the size.

How would 10 people for the UK (for example) even be representative?

Also, if there were only ten for the UK, how many should Malta have?

 

[Rincewind]

Recently, on MSN, I've read that both Trump and Putin think that Brexit is a good idea. (sorry, I didn't make a note of the links).

Can't help thinking that this suggests that voting Remain could be a good idea...

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I have little do do with any campaigns, but I ill be voting OUT come the referendum.

the world is becoming a smaller and more connected place, so I very much doubt that a lone UK is ever going to happen.

I'm voting out because I want the relationship between us and the EU to be fundamentally rewritten. Voting out is the only way that's going to happen, voting to remain just gives all of the present EU setup carte blanche to continue with the status quo.

I'd like to see a massive reduction in MEPs and a Europe that's basically a 'free trade area' with an optional currency (Euro) and the free movement of people within the EU to be made into a 'very easy' movement of most people within the EU.

imo Europe needs to become a full "Federal States of Europe" with a single centralised government, or Free Trade Area and not lots else. It's trying to do something between the two and isn't doing a good job of it.

It always amazes me the conclusions people come to when they analyse scenarios.

If the UK leaves the EU do you really think that's MORE likely to create a European Union that suits the desires of the people who voted to leave? What's the process by which that happens?

You also seem to want free trade with the EU but not being bound by the rules and regulations of the EU. Do you realise that simply cannot be?

 

[Andy_Ross]

How has the EU made a 'Vaping' business untenable?

I see tatty shops selling dubious looking 'Vaping' gear just off the main shopping area in every town I vjsit7.
Heck, the town I live in has 3 of them that I know about and it's just a small market town.

 

[Henri McPhee]

Even if true it's somewhat of a different situation, i.e. suggesting the UK and France lose their permanent seats in favour of a single one for Europe. No mention of Israel outside of the comments, either.

It seems that it was a proposal by the American Samantha Power at the UN for Israel to be on the Security Council in a rotating function in 2020, rather like Saudi Arabia was put in charge of UN human rights, previously held by Libya. Canada supported this to give practical encouragement for Israeli expansion into Southern Lebanon, and a genocide by Israel against the people of Gaza. Hillary Clinton said on her emails that it would help Israel for there to be a Shia and Sunni war, which is now causing so much death and destruction in the Middle East, and for vindictiveness to any American student who offends Israel.

In my own police force area they have lost 700 police over the past few years. Prison staff all over the country has been reduced by 41 percent. University tuition fees have increased a lot. House prices have gone through the roof in London, which is not included in theoretical economics inflation figures. I put this down to EU austerity measures, and the lack of a British industrial base.

I suppose the Remain people will now scare pensioners that their pensions will be reduced, as well as cuts and closures to the care budget which have recently taken place under EU austerity. Unfortunately. probably the same thing will happen if the Vote Leave people win.

 

[Lothian]

It seems that it was a proposal by the American Samantha Power at the UN for Israel to be on the Security Council in a rotating function in 2020, rather like Saudi Arabia was put in charge of UN human rights, previously held by Libya. Canada supported this to give practical encouragement for Israeli expansion into Southern Lebanon, and a genocide by Israel against the people of Gaza. Hillary Clinton said on her emails that it would help Israel for there to be a Shia and Sunni war, which is now causing so much death and destruction in the Middle East, and for vindictiveness to any American student who offends Israel.

So nothing to do with the EU

In my own police force area they have lost 700 police over the past few years. Prison staff all over the country has been reduced by 41 percent. University tuition fees have increased a lot. House prices have gone through the roof in London, which is not included in theoretical economics inflation figures. I put this down to EU austerity measures, and the lack of a British industrial base.

Given that police funding, prison places, and tuition fees have nothing all to do with the EU I put your comments down to ignorance

I suppose the Remain people will now scare pensioners that their pensions will be reduced, as well as cuts and closures to the care budget which have recently taken place under EU austerity. Unfortunately. probably the same thing will happen if the Vote Leave people win.

You say the same thing will happen either way. This is because, once again, it is nothing to do with the EU

 

[Darat]

I have little do do with any campaigns, but I ill be voting OUT come the referendum.

the world is becoming a smaller and more connected place, so I very much doubt that a lone UK is ever going to happen.

I'm voting out because I want the relationship between us and the EU to be fundamentally rewritten. Voting out is the only way that's going to happen, voting to remain just gives all of the present EU setup carte blanche to continue with the status quo.

I'd like to see a massive reduction in MEPs and a Europe that's basically a 'free trade area' with an optional currency (Euro) and the free movement of people within the EU to be made into a 'very easy' movement of most people within the EU.

imo Europe needs to become a full "Federal States of Europe" with a single centralised government, or Free Trade Area and not lots else. It's trying to do something between the two and isn't doing a good job of it.

And how on earth do you get the idea that to reform the EU we have to leave it? And let's just say those reforms do happen they then won't do us as a nonmember any good.

 

[Ambrosia]

And how on earth do you get the idea that to reform the EU we have to leave it? And let's just say those reforms do happen they then won't do us as a nonmember any good.

I'm not really suggesting reforms though. Ideally I'd want to see the whole thing torn up and started over.

One of the EUs flaws is the undemocratic way directives are drafted and voted on. A flaw exacerbated by the fact that there are so many MEPs.

You also seem to want free trade with the EU but not being bound by the rules and regulations of the EU. Do you realise that simply cannot be?

How do Free Trade agreements between other sovereign countries work? Like say NAFTA. Do both those countries have identical laws and regulations?

Why couldn't UK company X make sure that it's widgets complied with the local laws of country Y for the widgets it's making to export there. Why do all the laws have to be homogenised between trading partners?

 

[Ambrosia]

How has the EU made a 'Vaping' business untenable?

The Tobacco Products Directive, which comes into force in a couple more weeks and has a leeway time of ~12 months.

Though it's not my intention to debate vaping stuff here. By all means start a new thread on vaping and the TPD and I'll contribute there.

 

[Craig B]

<snip>

The post you attribute to me was written by Archie Gemmill Goal. See post #711.

 

[jimbob]

The Tobacco Products Directive, which comes into force in a couple more weeks and has a leeway time of ~12 months.

Though it's not my intention to debate vaping stuff here. By all means start a new thread on vaping and the TPD and I'll contribute there.

I've had a look at a summare here from an adimttedly anti-smoking organisation:

http://ash.org.uk/files/documents/ASH_1011.pdf

Checks will be made to ensure the notification is complete and that the information provided demonstrates
that the product meets the standards set out in the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016. These
include:
• Child resistant/ tamper evident packaging is required for liquids and devices
• The device must be protected against breakage and leakage and capable of being refilled
without leakage
• Devices must deliver a consistent dose of nicotine under normal conditions
• Tank and cartridge sizes must be no more than 2ml in volume and nicotine strengths of
liquids must be no more than 20mg/ml.

A lot of those look quite reasonable.

Also, whilst the regulations might be EU ones, it is hard to believe that if we were out of the EU, similar regulations wouldn't be implemented by the UK government. |

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

How do Free Trade agreements between other sovereign countries work? Like say NAFTA. Do both those countries have identical laws and regulations?[/quote[

Through a negotiated legal framework of rules and regulations that enable that free trade within any defined limits of the agreement.

There can be differences of course between countries laws and regulations just as there are between EU countries right now.

Why couldn't UK company X make sure that it's widgets complied with the local laws of country Y for the widgets it's making to export there. Why do all the laws have to be homogenised between trading partners?

UK company X could make widgets that complied with the rules and regulations of 50 countries and it would make exporting a nightmare. Or they could homogenise to make it easier to trade across the various partners.

If you export homogenisation is a good thing.