Brexit: the referendum

Lothian said:
This morning Boris was quizzed on R4 Today programme about the relationship with Europe. He said, post Brexit, he wanted access to the free trade area. When it was put to him that the only countries that have that pay with free movement of people (they also pay financially but the point wasn't made) Boris replied with America as the example of what he was looking for Britain to have.

Americans pay tariffs when trading with the EU.

The Brexit side need to be clear. If by saying they want access to the free market they mean that they want to trade with the EU with the addition of tariffs they need to say that. Saying "access to the free trade area" makes it sound like tariff free trade.

For me this is a crucial point.

Post Brexit will there be trade tariffs with Europe? If not, and if there will be free trade what will we pay pay for it in terms of money and other concessions (free movement)?

These are huge factors that will affect the prosperity of the UK. I appreciate that a deal has not been done but without any indication of a realistic settlement it does not help people decide.
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The Brexit people have no idea what the post-exit situation will be like because it will be negotiated in the months and years following the Brexit decision. Instead they have chosen to portray a best fantasy case scenario where the UK gets all the benefits of EU membership but none of the costs or obligations of it.

Any attempt to point our that they live in cloud cuckoo land is met with protestations that it is typical of Europe to stomp on Britain and that we will get such favourable terms because we're a special ickle snowflake :rolleyes:

It does indicate how clueless or mendacious Boris is. I still think that his support for Brexit has less to do with wanting to be out of Europe and more to do with wanting to be in Number 10.
 
The Don said:
It does indicate how clueless or mendacious Boris is. I still think that his support for Brexit has less to do with wanting to be out of Europe and more to do with wanting to be in Number 10.
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He didn't deny that as well as his ProBrexit article in the Telegraph he also gave them a pro staying article making a last minute decision on which one to print.
 
Lothian said:
The Brexit side need to be clear. If by saying they want access to the free market they mean that they want to trade with the EU with the addition of tariffs they need to say that. Saying "access to the free trade area" makes it sound like tariff free trade.

For me this is a crucial point.

Post Brexit will there be trade tariffs with Europe? If not, and if there will be free trade what will we pay pay for it in terms of money and other concessions (free movement)?
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What those advocating Brexit have yet to explain is not only how they think the UK could roll back the clock unilaterally while not losing anything gained, but also exactly why, if democracy is so important, so little real and honest effort was spent on getting a Brussels administration they could live with, and most of all, a right proper EU constitution to protect all the rights they so fear for. For those of us on the outside, advocates of Brexit can sound startlingly like Trumpians, all froth and very little but myth and sentiment for answers, and a rather suspicious slant involving others.
 
Hlafordlaes said:
What those advocating Brexit have yet to explain is not only how they think the UK could roll back the clock unilaterally while not losing anything gained, but also exactly why, if democracy is so important, so little real and honest effort was spent on getting a Brussels administration they could live with, and most of all, a right proper EU constitution to protect all the rights they so fear for. For those of us on the outside, advocates of Brexit can sound startlingly like Trumpians, all froth and very little but myth and sentiment for answers, and a rather suspicious slant involving others.
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For your first point, no-one is suggesting rolling back the clock. It will be a new situation. With agreements to be determined over the next couple of years. It's equally in the interests of the other European economies to reach those agreements as it is ours.

There has been no honest attempt at brokering change because it's not in the interests of the political classes for them to do so. In fact the only significant changes have been to increase federalization, despite there being no democratic mandate to do so.

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Mikemcc said:
It's equally in the interests of the other European economies to reach those agreements as it is ours.
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Not really. The EU would have bigger fish to fry than a trade agreement with the UK. I'm sure it would happen but I doubt there would be a rush to do it and I'm sure more than a few of the politicians involved would enjoy sticking it to the UK after they decided to leave the club.
 
Mikemcc said:
For your first point, no-one is suggesting rolling back the clock. It will be a new situation. With agreements to be determined over the next couple of years. It's equally in the interests of the other European economies to reach those agreements as it is ours.
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It is clearly in Europe's interest to:-
be able to trade freely within the UK,
Have a high tariff added to the UK's goods and services,
Have the UK make the same (or higher) contribution to the EU as they do now
Have the free movement of EU citizens to the UK and
Have limitations on UK citizens going to and working in Europe.

There will be a deal but it is fantasy to suggest that we can have the same benefits as we do now with none of the costs.

UK trade is important to the EU albeit we are a far smaller proportion of their trade than they are of ours.

I would expect any deal to recognise this imbalance and Europe would get the better end of a new deal. If it did not the EU would dissolve. If the UK got a better deal, the remaining EU countries would all look to leave to get better deals from themselves.
 
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Craig B said:
It was the fulfilment of a treaty relationship contracted long before in very different circumstances, and which was in general of great value to the UK. If UK and USA were not the parties involved, it would be unreservedly praised by the leftwing as a laudable example of loyalty. See also Saddam effectively conquered Kuwait, so his expansionist aspirations were not an imaginary issue.
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Yep, holds up well.


Craig B said:
Personally, I think the battle was the height of idiocy. What about this?
In keeping with his understanding of the medieval code of chivalry, King James sent notice to the English, one month in advance, of his intent to invade​
He had a thing about knightly tournaments, did James.
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I think that's one of the sweetest things I've ever heard in warfare.
I pity whomever James may have had on the payroll as his spymaster:
"We've found the leak at court your majesty"
"Excellent! Who is it?"
"You"
 
I'm glad to see that Ian Duncan Smith is keen on fighting inequality and helping the poorer members of society.

I don't entirely agree with his analysis that these problems are exacerbated by the EU.
 
Giz said:
Yep, holds up well. Saddam effectively conquered Kuwait, so his expansionist aspirations were not an imaginary issue.
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The Second Iraq War happened after Saddam had been driven from Kuwait. It was the Second (2003) not the First (1990) Iraq War that was so unpopular.
Giz said:
I think that's one of the sweetest things I've ever heard in warfare.
I pity whomever James may have had on the payroll as his spymaster:
"We've found the leak at court your majesty"
"Excellent! Who is it?"
"You"
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Off with his head!
 
jimbob said:
I'm glad to see that Ian Duncan Smith is keen on fighting inequality and helping the poorer members of society.

I don't entirely agree with his analysis that these problems are exacerbated by the EU.
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The Tories didn't need any help from the EU to klutz that up.

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Lothian said:
If the UK got a better deal, the remaining EU countries would all look to leave to get better deals from themselves.
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If the EU establishment is the power-sucking monster Brexiters paint it as, it will freakin' crucify the UK pour encourager les autres.

That's my contribution to Project Fear. :cool:
 
Craig B said:
If you have a hostile great power as a neighbour, it makes sense to have another great power as a friend ...
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Hence the Old Alliance.

However that may be, I don't think that hostility to France is as widespread in Scotland as it is among southern brexiteers.
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A natural descent from the Old Alliance in the former and the Old Enemy in the latter.
 
CapelDodger said:
If the EU establishment is the power-sucking monster Brexiters paint it as, it will freakin' crucify the UK pour encourager les autres.

That's my contribution to Project Fear. :cool:
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IMO the Brexiters believe that the EU establishment will attempt to impose excruciating exit conditions but Britain, thanks to their excellent negotiation skills and her special ickle snowflake status will manage instead to end up with all the benefits of EU membership but none of the costs or obligations. :boggled:
 
CapelDodger said:
If the EU establishment is the power-sucking monster Brexiters paint it as, it will freakin' crucify the UK pour encourager les autres.

That's my contribution to Project Fear. :cool:
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No it's quite clear. Britain is better than all those foreign countries. Some weak Johnny Foreigner sympathiser signed away all of our greatness to be part of the EU and now we are stuck cow-towing to these inferior continental types while they bleed us dry.

Once freed from the shackles of Europe the UK can once again be great and Europe will be so in awe of our wonder that they will give us anything we want and if they don't hell mend them because they'll all be begging on the streets in a fortnight without the UK's coattails to hang on to.

Something like that anyway.
 
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