Brexit: the referendum

[welshdean]

You may be right about that. I have never really understood the common agricultural policy, or the European Commission, or the culling of the Scottish fishing fleets so that Spanish factory ships could grab our cod or mackerel, or the way that our our budget policy, and decisions about our health service, are decided by the German finance minister, or the way rulings by our Supreme Court can be overturned in Europe.

The economic danger of all this is that a currency speculator like George Soros in America, who supports the fascist beasts in Ukraine, and Sultan Erdogan in Turkey, and our Jewish lordships, can cause a sudden loss of international confidence, which would result in a sale en masse of foreign held sterling.

I think there might be more on your mind than you're letting on.

 

[angrysoba]

I'm embarrassed that our 'representatives' think so little of our democracy and voters that they act like badly behaved schoolchildren rather than debating the opposition. Is it any wonder that so many people are too cynical of politicians to even bother voting?

It was funny. Even the Labour benches found it hard not to laugh.

 

[Craig B]

The economic danger of all this is that a currency speculator like George Soros in America, who supports the fascist beasts in Ukraine, and Sultan Erdogan in Turkey, and our Jewish lordships, can cause a sudden loss of international confidence, which would result in a sale en masse of foreign held sterling.

This fantastic drivel, worthy of the fabricators of the "Protocols", is a good reason for staying with the EU, and finding some other way of amending the fisheries and agriculture policies.

 

[Ian Osborne]

It was funny. Even the Labour benches found it hard not to laugh.

Yeah, I had to chuckle too.

 

[Craig B]

I don't follow. I can't see any connection between what Gove said, (which was a bland empty soundbite), and our Imperial past.

It was not an empty sound bite. That you can't follow it is regrettable. Gove's utterance is significant. What mojo does Gove want the UK to "get back"? What manner of mojo was lost when we started taking orders from foreigners? What existed before that? I'll let you tell us.

Posted by Craig B .."It seems to me that the recent experience of Empire still affects the minds of certain politicians"......
Mike G "I think you mentally exaggerate the number politicians who have served more than 40 years or so,"

We've only been a member of the EU for 40 odd years.

So according to you the mojo was something that died out forty years ago, when we became a member of the EU. And elsewhere you assign that duration to the period which has elapsed since the end of "experience of Empire"

 

[P.J. Denyer]

It was funny. Even the Labour benches found it hard not to laugh.

The initial line was funny and well timed (whether it was appropriate is debateable but probably part of a larger discussion of Parlimentary standards of behaviour on all sides) but the over the top fake laughter going on and on was puerile.

 

[catsmate]

Because Scotland bad; UK good. Or something.

Ah yes, UK nationalism.

As an aside, the European Court of Human Rights is not part of the EU, but a parallel development and we are not going to have a referendum on leaving *that*.

Including, as some of the Outers have invoked it, Switzerland.
Though I don't think many of the UK's anti-EU mass understand the difference between the EU and the CoE.

What sovereignty have we lost and what would we gain if we left and what practical changes would that result in?

Perhaps the ECHR's decisions stopping the UK from discriminating against homosexuals, prevent prisoners accessing the courts, stop newspapers reveal politically inconvenient facts, mistreat prisoners, extradite people to face execution or torture, stop people joining trade unions, force people to make incriminating statements, deny access to counsel, permit racially prejudiced juries et cetera?

Though, as before, I doubt most of the anti-EU crowd understand the nature of the CoE and ECHR.

(From my view the biggest threats to our actual "sovereignty" is multinationals, for goodness sake we can't even manage to collect taxes on trade conducted in the UK, never mind control them, being a member of the EU does give us more weight to fight that loss of sovereignty.)

But corporations and the market are *good*, the tories say so...

 

[catsmate]

You may be right about that. I have never really understood the common agricultural policy, or the European Commission,
<rant snip>

I was referring to the rather fundamental mistake in your prior rant.

or the culling of the Scottish fishing fleets

Have you considered not over-fishing?

rulings by our Supreme Court can be overturned in Europe.

Yes, it's terrible that someone holds the UK to account for it's violations of human rights.

The economic danger of all this is that a currency speculator like George Soros in America, who supports the fascist beasts in Ukraine, and Sultan Erdogan in Turkey, and our Jewish lordships, can cause a sudden loss of international confidence, which would result in a sale en masse of foreign held sterling.

Ah, the anti-Semitic portion of your rant.

 

[MikeG]

...... So according to you ..

Ah, the good old rule of so. This means that next we should find a misrepresentation of my position........

the mojo was something that died out forty years ago, when we became a member of the EU........

Oh yes, will you look at that! What a shock.

No, Craig, that is not my view. I haven't claimed that we have lost our mojo, (not an expression I have ever uttered in my life), nor have I claimed that leaving the EU would be of any net benefit to the UK at all, let alone in terms of our "mojo".

Like I said, the statement from Gove was vacuous. You are reading far too much into it, in my view, but most of all, somehow you have become confused enough to think I support it.

 

[Craig B]

No, Craig, that is not my view. I haven't claimed that we have lost our mojo, (not an expression I have ever uttered in my life), nor have I claimed that leaving the EU would be of any net benefit to the UK at all, let alone in terms of our "mojo".

Like I said, the statement from Gove was vacuous. You are reading far too much into it, in my view, but most of all, somehow you have become confused enough to think I support it.

I made no claims that you are supporting Gove.. I am stating that you ought to understand why Gove's "mojo" which is by no means vacuous, may be associated with the sort of imperial thinking prevalent in certain quarters prior to the end of empire and accession to the EU.

 

[Agatha]

Has your MP declared their stance yet? http://www.theguardian.com/politics...23/how-will-your-mp-vote-in-the-eu-referendum

My MP has not yet declared her stance, but her regular e-bulletins suggest that she'll be in favour of remaining.

 

[MikeG]

I made no claims that you are supporting Gove.. I am stating that you ought to understand why Gove's "mojo" which is by no means vacuous, may be associated with the sort of imperial thinking prevalent in certain quarters prior to the end of empire and accession to the EU.

You did indeed say specifically that "according to

our mojo died out 40 years ago". That would be supporting Gove's claim.

I made, and make, no such claim. I have no idea what Gove is trying to say, but I'd be pretty surprised if had anything to do with the last vestiges of Empire getting their independence.

 

[Craig B]

You did indeed say specifically that "according to

our mojo died out 40 years ago". That would be supporting Gove's claim.

I made, and make, no such claim. I have no idea what Gove is trying to say, but I'd be pretty surprised if had anything to do with the last vestiges of Empire getting their independence.

Thank you for pointing that out. In fact I said

So according to you the mojo was something that died out forty years ago, when we became a member of the EU. And elsewhere you assign that duration to the period which has elapsed since the end of "experience of Empire"

I mean you perceive both that the experience of Empire died out forty years ago, and we have been in the EU for that period of time. Gove thinks we should get "mojo" back, by leaving the EU. I think (even if you do not) that this mojo may therefore be identified with imperial status, now lost. Gove is not being vacuous, and it is only too clear what he is trying to say.

This is similar to Trump's assertions about the greatness of the USA, to be recovered under him as president.

 

[Lothian]

Well cross border co-operation on tax avoidance and harmonised accounting and reporting laws should be more effective than unilateral action (should..).

The ability to raise taxes is a key part of sovereignty so I can see where Darat is coming from.

There are Cross EU groups who share information to stop tax evasion. We would not be able to take part if we were outside the EU who fund and sponsor it.

'Tax planning opportunities' would arise if we left. Europe incentivises financial and insurance businesses with some generous tax rules.
Post Brexit businesses in Europe would find getting insurance or finance from the UK would be more expensive. Similarly it would be cheaper for UK individuals to get insurance and finance from Europe.
I think leaving would be the start of the death of the City of London.

 

[Ian Osborne]

Has your MP declared their stance yet? http://www.theguardian.com/politics...23/how-will-your-mp-vote-in-the-eu-referendum

My MP has not yet declared her stance, but her regular e-bulletins suggest that she'll be in favour of remaining.

Mine's declared for leaving. Not that it matters in a referendum.

 

[MikeG]

Thank you for pointing that out. In fact I said I mean you perceive both that the experience of Empire died out forty years ago, and we have been in the EU for that period of time. Gove thinks we should get "mojo" back, by leaving the EU. I think (even if you do not) that this mojo may therefore be identified with imperial status, now lost. Gove is not being vacuous, and it is only too clear what he is trying to say.

This is similar to Trump's assertions about the greatness of the USA, to be recovered under him as president.

If you hadn't said that it was my position, I would have agreed with this assessment, albeit with the proviso that Gove probably didn't have anything about the empire in his mind when he made his comment, and the further proviso that I still think it nothing but a vacuous unthinking comment from him. However, once you start saying that these things are my view point, which you did, then we'll argue. They are not my views, they are Gove's.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

There are Cross EU groups who share information to stop tax evasion. We would not be able to take part if we were outside the EU who fund and sponsor it..

Yes, that's pretty much what I took Darat's point to be, I wasn't disagreeing, in principle at least.

 

[Craig B]

If you hadn't said that it was my position, I would have agreed with this assessment, albeit with the proviso that Gove probably didn't have anything about the empire in his mind when he made his comment, and the further proviso that I still think it nothing but a vacuous unthinking comment from him. However, once you start saying that these things are my view point, which you did, then we'll argue. They are not my views, they are Gove's.

They are not your views, but the chronology you (correctly) propose lends credence to my exegesis of Gove's views.

Also, I really do think that what he said is relatively easy to understand: and Gove meant it seriously.

 

[MikeG]

OK, well if you could just be a little more careful about assigning other people's views to me in future, I'd appreciate it.

A quick look around the internet suggests that you might actually be on to something. He may be something of a history revisionist when it comes to empire. Gradiun

 

[ComfySlippers]

The initial line was funny and well timed (whether it was appropriate is debateable but probably part of a larger discussion of Parlimentary standards of behaviour on all sides) but the over the top fake laughter going on and on was puerile.

Ironically(?) it could be argued that this contender for "Funniest Joke in The World"* was merely a copy of Nigel Farage's question to EU President Herman van Rompuy. Now that was funny.


(* Mandatory Monty Python reference)