Brexit: the referendum

People who would, of course, be shocked when they rock up and discover that they get a pittance that barely covers existance in the UK, while being constantly badgered to either get a job, or supply convincing evidence that they're looking for one.

Including a young quadruple amputee, already known as such to the authorities, who was asked to attend a meeting in person to reassess his DLA. An extreme case, to be sure, but other cases surface regularly and seemingly more frequently as the administration of the UK's benefits system is increasingly privatised.

Meanwhile, if foreign nationals get the levels of child benefit applicable in their home country it opens up the real possibility that they will get more than Brits living in the UK. After all, some EU countries have more generous benefits than the UK.

I agree with H'ethetheth here - the whole benefits caboodle is pandering to the xenophobe vote, which is why we're having the bloody referendum in the first place.

The UK has one of the most tight-fisted benefits systems in Europe.
 
People who would, of course, be shocked when they rock up and discover that they get a pittance that barely covers existance in the UK, while being constantly badgered to either get a job, or supply convincing evidence that they're looking for one.

Indeed. I was pretty careful to make sure that no one mistook the government's argument on this matter for my viewpoint. I think the whole "re-negotiation" thing was trivial and fascile, and almost none of the "concessions" is of any significance whatever. I can't imagine for a minute that this benefits measure will stop more than a few dozen people from making the trip, and will save us tuppence ha'penny every year.
 
Indeed. I was pretty careful to make sure that no one mistook the government's argument on this matter for my viewpoint. I think the whole "re-negotiation" thing was trivial and fascile, and almost none of the "concessions" is of any significance whatever. I can't imagine for a minute that this benefits measure will stop more than a few dozen people from making the trip, and will save us tuppence ha'penny every year.

Add in the extra administration and it could even cost money.
 
Who says? There are 2 years to negotiate exit terms (it's in a treaty somewhere), and I haven't the least doubt that their bureaucrats and our bureaucrats could work something out on this and similar matters quite easily.
Interesting how this bland optimism is OK now, but didn't apply when Scotland was considering leaving the UK.
 
Do you only read one paragraph? I covered this, exactly:
No you didn't. German social policy has as little to do with this as Indonesian military expenditures.

Cameron is essentially stating that it is okay for the British to abuse the social safety net, but not for foreigners.
If proneness to abuse was actually the problem, the solution would not be to make it harder to abuse for foreigners only. Thus, the implication is that abuse by other EU citizens is a big enough problem to be mentioned in a list of things to be addressed lest the UK leave the EU.

Now, I can't say I know the extent of this problem, but even if it were a big problem, several other European countries have social security systems apparently less prone to abuse, which means that solving this problem is a thing the UK can do all by itself without violating any European laws.
The chosen solution, focusing on foreigners, therefore presumably intentionally violates aspects of the EU internal market, in order to convince the xenophobes to vote to stay in the EU.
The whole thing obviously contrived such that Cameron's peers, the business and finance people, get to stay in the EU, while not having to pay as much as do the other well-to-do member states.

Note that the only place where German social policy has anything at all to do with this, is that it is one the social safety nets that are allegedly less prone to abuse. This is no way implies that the only solution is to impose the Sozialversicherungsgesetz in the UK.
And even if these exact policies would be the only possible solution that doesn't limit free movement in the internal market: There is nothing inherently German about these policies. How petulant and imbecilic does one have to be to reject policies on the basis that Germany enacts them as well?
 
And herein lies the reason why it's unfortunately better to avoid these discussions.

We all know that there are crappy people who thrive on turning anything and everything into a racist rant. Those people can go **** themselves because they are despicable cockwombles. This does not mean, however, that raising concerns over genuine real life observable issues makes one xenophobic and racist.

Not that it should be necessary but I'll state this:
It is my opinion, not based on what someone has told me to believe, that The EU is a good idea gone wrong. I think we should remain in but massive changes need to occur.

I'm not invoking snowflakeism. I'm making a statement based on how the present system has, and does, affect my life. If I'm still to be tarred with a certain brush.... Come visit me. Use your own eyes and I guarantee you will say "WTF?" because chances are you believe that all the genuinely xenophobic claptrap somehow makes the real things an imagined fantasy.

"Oh, but that's your local council unable to budget correctly"
No, it's a council that in no way could ever afford to adhere to laws imposed by bureaucrats
who make decisions based on their limited knowledge of how such decisions will affect ....

[Stay tuned... Accidental button push...]
...
[Sorry about that]

...decisions will affect things they don't understand.

"Make a change when voting for your EMP"
The Tories have a habit of not voting on, rather voting no to, issues that they disagree on.

"I'm doing okay, I don't see any of these problems"
Good. I'm very happy for you. Again, pay a visit and look with your own eyes.

"It's The UK's fault their benefit system is so open to abuse"
We have to get The ECs permission to change our own rules. Some member states don't want our rules changing.

"UK Benefits are a joke, why would people enter the Country to claim them?"
I know they're a joke. But people do! Again, come visit and ask several neighbour families why they can claim child benefit, at UK rates, for children who do not, never have or will live in The UK whilst never having to work and owning two BMWs.

I truly am happy that some people don't see how the real world operates and that they get to wear their rose tinted spectacles.
It must be truly awesome.

The UK signed up to join a club that promoted free and easier trade, not one which governs and imposes laws.
 
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Now that the pigheaded buffoon Cameron is preaching about how terrible everything will be if we should ever dare to leave the E.U., it makes me wonder why he was so keen to offer us a referendum in the first place.
 
Now that the pigheaded buffoon Cameron is preaching about how terrible everything will be if we should ever dare to leave the E.U., it makes me wonder why he was so keen to offer us a referendum in the first place.

Terrified of losing Eurosceptic votes to UKIP at the last election. He made his bed badly and now has to lie in it.
 
I realise it's an ad hominem, but with Farage, Gove, IDS, Johnson and Galloway in favour of exit, it's hard not to simply assume it's the wrong decision.

Three egotistical maniacs, Quietman, and Gove. At least Gove sometimes gets some things right.
 
....and bear in mind that for some of us, some of those negatives are also positives. Personally I think that the European Court of Justice has been a net benefit for the people of the U.K. There have been a small number of apparently perverse rulings (but then again many of those have been through the filter of a largely Eurosceptic press) but then again there have been a much larger number of rulings where people's rights have been protected when national courts have failed them.

Likewise with the "A ridiculously expensive and intrusive bureaucracy". At least we have a single bureaucracy handling the affairs of 28 countries (as opposed to 28 ridiculously expensive and intrusive bureaucracies handling them in their uniquely inefficient ways). Regarding loss of sovereignty, there's a continuum which at one end we have one world government and at the other Freemen on the Land. My personal view is that the larger the unit over which sovereignty is wielded, the less the risk of conflict, armed or otherwise (which is why instinctively I was anti Scottish independence (although an independent Scotland in a united Europe could have changed my mind).

As our main export market for many industries is likely to be the EU, our businesses would still have to meet EU standards in many cases, but without the benefit of having influence.

As to the rest - those tend to be roughly my views.
 
And herein lies the reason why it's unfortunately better to avoid these discussions.

We all know that there are crappy people who thrive on turning anything and everything into a racist rant. Those people can go **** themselves because they are despicable cockwombles. This does not mean, however, that raising concerns over genuine real life observable issues makes one xenophobic and racist.

Not that it should be necessary but I'll state this:
It is my opinion, not based on what someone has told me to believe, that The EU is a good idea gone wrong. I think we should remain in but massive changes need to occur.
I mostly agree, but bailing out is a weird thing to do to in the situation, in my opinion.
I think the EU has taken in way to many countries too quickly, every one bringing their own added difficulties to the table, and though there has been very quick progress made in the newer members, I think people at the top overestimated the capacity for solidarity in the older member states.

That said, the thing that worries me most these days, is the fact that in the last decade, politicians in democracies all over the place are rediscovering that xenophobia and ethnocentrism transcend many traditional political boundaries, and thus contitute a very large voting block if properly motivated.
This is causing all the peoples of Europe to huddle back together in their in-group and become less cooperative, which defeats the whole point of the EU.
Britain is not unique in that regard, certainly, but as the first member to potentially leave, they may set a precedent that slowly eats at the EU as an idea, which would be bad, in my opinion.
 
Hang on a minute!

We've now got 28 individual bureaucracies PLUS the EU bureaucracy. Whitehall didn't just disappear when we signed up to the Common Market.

An EU bureaucracy that packs up and moves three hundred miles for four days then packs up again and moves back, every single month.
 
An EU bureaucracy that packs up and moves three hundred miles for four days then packs up again and moves back, every single month.

Careful, you'll be called a xenophobe, or something.

When I wrote "ridiculously expensive bureaucracy" many pages back, it was with this nonsense in mind. I meant that it was a bureaucracy which was ridiculously expensive, rather than it being a ridiculous bureaucracy which is also expensive. I'm not surprised that with so many EU enthusiasts in the thread that we have got 6 pages in without mentioning the crazy cost of the European Parliament, and the gravy train of expenses and allowances they receive. I'll wait for someone else to bring the subject up.
 
Careful, you'll be called a xenophobe, or something.

When I wrote "ridiculously expensive bureaucracy" many pages back, it was with this nonsense in mind. I meant that it was a bureaucracy which was ridiculously expensive, rather than it being a ridiculous bureaucracy which is also expensive. I'm not surprised that with so many EU enthusiasts in the thread that we have got 6 pages in without mentioning the crazy cost of the European Parliament, and the gravy train of expenses and allowances they receive. I'll wait for someone else to bring the subject up.
Did you abstain from raising these issues, in spite of their evident importance to you, because
It really wasn't worth trying to have a sensible conversation on this subject, was it. I shouldn't have started the thread.
 
Did you abstain from raising these issues, in spite of their evident importance to you, because

"Their evident importance to
"? Not sure what you're talking about Craig. The cost of the European parliament wouldn't be in my top 10 issues, and is surely the most fixable of all of the wastes built into the EU system. Anyone who advocates leaving because of this issue alone really has got their priorities wrong.
 
Careful, you'll be called a xenophobe, or something.

When I wrote "ridiculously expensive bureaucracy" many pages back, it was with this nonsense in mind. I meant that it was a bureaucracy which was ridiculously expensive, rather than it being a ridiculous bureaucracy which is also expensive. I'm not surprised that with so many EU enthusiasts in the thread that we have got 6 pages in without mentioning the crazy cost of the European Parliament, and the gravy train of expenses and allowances they receive. I'll wait for someone else to bring the subject up.

Are the costs so huge for an organisation covering 500-million people?
 
Are the costs so huge for an organisation covering 500-million people?

A comedian made a point on some radio show at the weekend that if Britain rather than France had set up the EEC, we would have had an office above a fish 'n chip shop manned by 3 officials and a couple of secretaries. It would have sent a letter out every now and then asking countries to remember that this was supposed to be a free trade zone, so could they please make their trade freer.

Obviously, he was making his point for the comedic effect, but the principle of doing less, and doing it cheaper, would improve the EU immensely. IMHO, of course.
 

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