Brexit: the referendum

[Roofgardener]

And if Slovakia wasn't in the EU they wouldn't have touched it with a bargepole. That's the point.

Car plants are pretty much there to serve Europe not their home countries. No easy export route, no car plant.

Possibly. But my point is that being in the European Union is NOT a gaurentee of safety for UK car manufacturing.

Untill three years ago, the UK used to manufacture the Ford Transit van. (and variations). Ford closed it down, and moved their EUROPEAN production centre to to non-EU Turkey.

How does that tie in with the idea of "we must be in the EU in order to export cars "into" the European Union" ?

 

[SusanB-M1]

Possibly. But my point is that being in the European Union is NOT a gaurentee of safety for UK car manufacturing.

Untill three years ago, the UK used to manufacture the Ford Transit van. (and variations). Ford closed it down, and moved their EUROPEAN production centre to to non-EU Turkey.

How does that tie in with the idea of "we must be in the EU in order to export cars "into" the European Union" ?

If anyone votes leave on consideration of such a single issue, and my heart sinks when I hear of so many who will, then it is a sad day indeed for the UK's future. What wil be the relevance of such a single issue in fifty, a hundred years from now? The most important thing is maintaining and increasing communication and co-operation among as many peoples as possible. Well, that's my very strongly held opinion.

 

[The Don]

Funnily enough the end of the booze cruise is one of the main things that would tempt me to vote out (I sell fine wines and most of my best sellers aren't European anyway). However my belief in the motives behind 'Out' are enough for me to vote remain.

I guess it's horses for courses. Almost all of the "decent" wine I buy (£50 a bottle and more) is European. That said I probably don't buy more than a couple of dozen bottles at that price every year (special occasions, presents and the like).

OTOH a large proportion of our daily swill comes from outside the E.U., the exception being if I've recently been to France and been able to pick up a few cases of €10 claret for general consumption. If Brexit were to happen I cannot see the price of non-E.U. wines go down, indeed the prices can go up because the competition from the E.U. will be less keen.

 

[Darat]

Well, that IS possible. However, lets not forget that being in Europe doesn't necessarily protect car plants either.

Slovakia joined the EU in 2004. Two years later, Peugeot closed its production facility in Coventry, and opened a replacement.

In Slovakia.

If I was being mischievous, I could point out that car production halved between joining the EU in 1972, and the low of 2009. Therefore, the EU is bad for UK car production. Obviously, that is utter nonsense; there is no causal link between the two.

... ummm.... unless you live in Coventry, that is. But then... people knew the risks when they chose to be born there.

Did they close a plant in France?

As someone else posted one of the weaknesses that is a direct result of UK legislation (with nothing to do with the EU) we have in the UK is how easy it is for a company to close a plant and relocate it elsewhere because we are "business friendly". To do the same in say Germany or France would probably cost a company a lot more, have to involve lengthy negotiations with unions and government and so on - all of which adds to the cost of opening a new plant elsewhere perhaps even enough that would make such a move uneconomic.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Possibly. But my point is that being in the European Union is NOT a gaurentee of safety for UK car manufacturing.

Untill three years ago, the UK used to manufacture the Ford Transit van. (and variations). Ford closed it down, and moved their EUROPEAN production centre to to non-EU Turkey.

How does that tie in with the idea of "we must be in the EU in order to export cars "into" the European Union" ?

Nothing is a guarantee of safety but somethings are pretty much a guarantee of danger.

Leaving the EU to help manufacturing is like taking the roof off your house to save money on roof repairs.

 

[Henri McPhee]

You also seem to rather dislike facts, and if you aren't antisemitic, you have an unfortunate turn of phrase:

That reference to a Jewish lordship came from a 1969 book by a former Foreign Office official called Geoffrey McDermott called 'The Eden Legacy and the Decline of British Diplomacy' which mentions "blimps such as Lord Mancroft who saw fit in the Lords to cast aspersions on the skill and honesty of an Egyptian dentist who operated on a British seaman. 'I should not like to put myself in the hands of any dentist of the UAR,' said his Jewish lordship. It is a state of mind."

McDermott further mentions "Mr Crossman, when Lord President of the Council, complained in a BBC programme, suggestively called 'Change or Decay?' that Britain probably had the worst-informed government in the world, that decisions were often taken on desperately inadequate information as a result, and that far more experts were needed to leaven the civil servants. He cited the Foreign Office amongst other departments, and suggested that all too often the same officials were both sifting the intelligence and proposing the policy. This is true and can be dangerous, as some exploits of the CIA have shown."

I don't like the way the Thatcherite policy of raising the pension age for women from 60 to 65 was suddenly introduced a few years ago under EU austerity with hardly a whisper from the journalists at the Daily Mail about the matter.

 

[Lothian]

I don't like the way the Thatcherite policy of raising the pension age for women from 60 to 65 was suddenly introduced a few years ago under EU austerity with hardly a whisper from the journalists at the Daily Mail about the matter.

It was announced as a change in 1995 and introduced as a gradual rise starting in 2010 reaching 65 in 2020.

You have a very strange interpretation of "suddenly".

Then again it is probably one of your saner posts.

 

[Information Analyst]

I don't like the way the Thatcherite policy of raising the pension age for women from 60 to 65 was suddenly introduced a few years ago under EU austerity with hardly a whisper from the journalists at the Daily Mail about the matter.

Thatcher had been gone five years before the decision to equalise the pension ages was enacted in 1995. It was widely discussed in the media at the time. As the changes were staggered, they began in 2010 and will not be fully implemented until the end of 2018. The change from 60 to 65 has nothing whatsoever to do with "EU austerity." The more recent rise from 65 to 67 for everyone will not start taking effect until early 2019, and again was widely discussed when decided upon.

 

[ceptimus]

A dirty trick for politicians to play, effectively stealing pension money from people who were promised a pension starting at a certain age.

The proper way to introduce such changes would have been to not make them retrospective - the new retirement ages could apply to people when they began their working lives but anyone already old enough to be at work should have retained the retirement age they were originally promised.

 

[The Don]

A dirty trick for politicians to play, effectively stealing pension money from people who were promised a pension starting at a certain age.

The proper way to introduce such changes would have been to not make them retrospective - the new retirement ages could apply to people when they began their working lives but anyone already old enough to be at work should have retained the retirement age they were originally promised.

Would have taken far too long to come into effect and would therefore had to be so much worse for those not yet working. IMO the way that successive governments have dealt with it isn't too bad, they've given years, nay decades of notice. It's hardly governments' fault that people are living so much longer, or more specifically it's an unintended consequence of living longer due to better living standards and healthcare.

Personally I'd rather receive the retirement pension at 67 with 20 healthy years in prospect (now) than at 65 with a handful (then), YMMV.

 

[Information Analyst]

A dirty trick for politicians to play, effectively stealing pension money from people who were promised a pension starting at a certain age.

The proper way to introduce such changes would have been to not make them retrospective - the new retirement ages could apply to people when they began their working lives but anyone already old enough to be at work should have retained the retirement age they were originally promised.

The harsh reality is that successive governments dodged that bullet until a polint when that approach was simply unfeasible. It's also the case - as The Don alludes to - that the dynamic had already shifted due to increases in life expectancy. My maternal grandmother died at 77, while my mother is already 74, but it likely to live well into her 80s. My paternal grandfather did in his 70s, while my father has just clocked 90. The amount of extra years people are being required to work are more than outstripped by the extra years they can expect to be drawing a pension.

 

[Ian Osborne]

The deadline to register to vote has been extended, so if you missed out, try again.

BBC news item

 

[Roofgardener]

If anyone votes leave on consideration of such a single issue, and my heart sinks when I hear of so many who will, then it is a sad day indeed for the UK's future. What wil be the relevance of such a single issue in fifty, a hundred years from now? The most important thing is maintaining and increasing communication and co-operation among as many peoples as possible. Well, that's my very strongly held opinion.

Oh gosh.. I agree wholeheartedly SusanB-M1. I was merely responding to one specific issue that was raised, not seeking to make this the "be all and end all" of the debate.

 

[Pixel42]

It was announced as a change in 1995 and introduced as a gradual rise starting in 2010 reaching 65 in 2020.

I'm one of the women affected (born in 1953), and yes I've known since 1995 that I wouldn't get my state pension until I was just over 63, unlike my (5 years older) sister who got hers at 60. But then, about 5 years ago, the rules were changed again, and I will now not get it until I'm well over 64. That's pretty late to make such a change.

 

[Darat]

But of course has bugger all to do with EU!

 

[ComfySlippers]

I'm one of the women affected (born in 1953), and yes I've known since 1995 that I wouldn't get my state pension until I was just over 63, unlike my (5 years older) sister who got hers at 60. But then, about 5 years ago, the rules were changed again, and I will now not get it until I'm well over 64. That's pretty late to make such a change.

There is an online .gov calculator that tells you how old you now need to be, and how many more years of full-time employment you need, in order to receive the basic state pension.

I was shocked when I saw mine, as I hadn't received the memo.

 

[Lothian]

I'm one of the women affected (born in 1953), and yes I've known since 1995 that I wouldn't get my state pension until I was just over 63, unlike my (5 years older) sister who got hers at 60. But then, about 5 years ago, the rules were changed again, and I will now not get it until I'm well over 64. That's pretty late to make such a change.

I don't get it until 67 but I have always assumed that it will be means tested by then and I will get sod all.

There is an online .gov calculator that tells you how old you now need to be, and how many more years of full-time employment you need, in order to receive the basic state pension.

I was shocked when I saw mine, as I hadn't received the memo.

link

 

[ComfySlippers]

...
But then, about 5 years ago, the rules were changed again, and I will now not get it until I'm well over 64. That's pretty late to make such a change.

There is an online .gov calculator that tells you how old you now need to be, and how many more years of full-time employment you need, in order to receive the basic state pension.

I was shocked when I saw mine, as I hadn't received the memo.

I don't get it until 67 but I have always assumed that it will be means tested by then and I will get sod all.

link

Ah. They've changed it. You used to also enter how long you'd worked in full-time employment, and it told you how many more years you needed to work in order to qualify for basic SP as well. It was about three years ago when my jaw dropped.

 

[GlennB]

Ah. They've changed it. You used to also enter how long you'd worked in full-time employment, and it told you how many more years you needed to work in order to qualify for basic SP as well. It was about three years ago when my jaw dropped.

iirc "full time employment" also included Uni degrees and other stuff (quite a joke in my case) which counted as 3 years for Uni and 1 for teacher training.

 

[Garrison]

The deadline to register to vote has been extended, so if you missed out, try again.

BBC news item

I'm hoping this surge was remain supporters finally waking up to the fact that they will actually need to vote. A disturbing trend in the polls has been that the public as a whole is moderately pro-Remain but leave supporters were more likely to actually vote. How crucial might that 2 day extension be?