Brexit: Now What? Part IV

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ceptimus said:
I assume the EU must already have made or be in the process of making its own legal commitment to prevent a hard border in Southern Ireland - otherwise this would be rather hypocritical.
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If there is no Brexit there will be no hard border. It is not in "Southern Ireland" - there is no such country - but separates the Republic of Ireland from the United Kingdom.

"Legal commitment"? Are you therefore suggesting that the EU27 are hypocrites because they haven't declared that Brexit is a criminal enterprise, and requested Interpol to track down and arrest Theresa May?
 
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It's perfectly clear what I said: if the EU want the UK to make a legal commitment not to have a hard border, then the EU should also make a legal commitment to do the same.
 
ceptimus said:
It's perfectly clear what I said: if the EU want the UK to make a legal commitment not to have a hard border, then the EU should also make a legal commitment to do the same.
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But the UK wants a hard boarder between the UK and the EU such as Ireland. That is what brexit means after all.
 
ceptimus said:
It's perfectly clear what I said: if the EU want the UK to make a legal commitment not to have a hard border, then the EU should also make a legal commitment to do the same.
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It's not the EU and Ireland that want to exit the current arrangement that makes the soft border possible. It's the UK that wants change. That change seems to be incompatible with a soft border, thus a legal commitment from the UK to ensure a soft border seems quite reasonable.

I fail to see why the EU would be required to make a fresh legal commitment for the same.
 
ceptimus seems to be of the opinion (common among Brexiteers) that it's up to the EU to sort our mess out for us.

Because...
 
ponderingturtle said:
But the UK wants a hard boarder between the UK and the EU such as Ireland. That is what brexit means after all.
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That's completely wrong. The UK government has stated formally on many occasions that it DOES NOT want a hard border with the Republic of Ireland and will not impose one.
 
It takes the authorities on both sides of a border to ensure that the border remains soft. If the EU wants the UK to make a legal commitment to do what they've already stated many times they will do, then the EU must do the same or show themselves to be hypocrites.
 
fagin said:
So cake and eat it.

Good luck.
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Complete nonsense. For Britain not to be guilty of building a hard border they simply don't have to build one. If the hard border is a cake, then we don't have a cake at the moment and Britain has stated that it won't bake any such cake.
 
ceptimus said:
Complete nonsense. For Britain not to be guilty of building a hard border they simply don't have to build one. If the hard border is a cake, then we don't have a cake at the moment and Britain has stated that it won't bake any such cake.
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By leaving they EU, the U.K. is baking that cake.

I suppose you could say, I've decided to cross a Border with a suitcase full of bottles of whisky, but I have also decided that there will be no customs barriers or inspectors on duty there to search my baggage for contraband. So if they do arrive and open my suitcase it's their fault and I'm in no way responsible for their activities.
 
Tolls said:
ceptimus seems to be of the opinion (common among Brexiteers) that it's up to the EU to sort our mess out for us.

Because...
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Because they first asked the experts in the UK to sort it out who, to a man, said "**** off, we told you it was a disaster". Those who wanted to leave got really upset at this.

Fortunately, they've found another party to blame for the promised unicorns not turning up in time.


Why the **** are we doing this?

Even the really rich bloke that paid for a lot of the lies knows it's a ****up so has purchased himself European citizenship.
 
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ceptimus said:
It takes the authorities on both sides of a border to ensure that the border remains soft. If the EU wants the UK to make a legal commitment to do what they've already stated many times they will do, then the EU must do the same or show themselves to be hypocrites.
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The U.K. has stated many things many times and some of those are incompatible with each other.

Thus, logically the EU wants the UK to legally commit itself to ensuring a soft border. That way backing out of this one promise becomes that much more difficult.

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Craig B said:
By leaving they EU, the U.K. is baking that cake.

I suppose you could say, I've decided to cross a Border with a suitcase full of bottles of whisky, but I have also decided that there will be no customs barriers or inspectors on duty there to search my baggage for contraband. So if they do arrive and open my suitcase it's their fault and I'm in no way responsible for their activities.
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Now you're getting really confused. If Britain doesn't build a hard border and neither do the EU, there wouldn't be anyone at the border to open the suitcase.
 
Amazer said:
The U.K. has stated many things many times and some of those are incompatible with each other.

Thus, logically the EU wants the UK to legally commit itself to ensuring a soft border. That way backing out of this one promise becomes that much more difficult.

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The UK's response should be simple: "Yes we're quite prepared to make that legal commitment, but only so long that the EU does the same."

Since both sides have already said that this is what they want and intend to do anyway there should be no problem for either side.

If the EU isn't prepared to make such a legal commitment, why should it expect the other side to do so?
 
ceptimus said:
That's completely wrong. The UK government has stated formally on many occasions that it DOES NOT want a hard border with the Republic of Ireland and will not impose one.
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They vote was to leave the EU and harden the borders, Ireland is part of the EU. So the leave vote was a vote for a hard irish border, just like all other parts of brexit will also be hard. Brexit means Brexit and that means a hard boarder with the EU which includes ireland.

You want an open boarder in Ireland, then you want an open boarder with the EU, how is that difficult to understand? You want to keep out EU people you then keep out the Irish.

See you don't get to say "Ireland is open boarders, but closed with Poland"
 
ponderingturtle said:
They vote was to leave the EU and harden the borders, Ireland is part of the EU. So the leave vote was a vote for a hard irish border, just like all other parts of brexit will also be hard. Brexit means Brexit and that means a hard boarder with the EU which includes ireland.

You want an open boarder in Ireland, then you want an open boarder with the EU, how is that difficult to understand? You want to keep out EU people you then keep out the Irish.

See you don't get to say "Ireland is open boarders, but closed with Poland"
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I find it increasingly incomprehensible that the, let's face it, really simple rules of the EU are utterly, and, let's face it, willfully misunderstood by those stupid enough to be hoodwinked by Nigel, Boris, Aaron and Christopher. It's a very simple concept.

People
Money
Services
Goods.

Free movement of all four or none at all.


I particularly like the childlike arguments that seem to just consist of 'We're special, waaaah, you're being evil, insisting we follow the rules, Waaah'.

None of this was information unavailable to them before the vote.

Nigel, Boris, Arron and Christopher didn't seem too keen to highlight the issue though, the *****.
 
The open border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland existed long before the EU.

The UK has pledged repeatedly that it won't build a hard border - this would be in breach of the Good Friday agreement (which again was not primarily an EU matter).

The EU is being presumptive in the extreme by suggesting that the UK now needs a new legal commitment to not erect a hard border. It would be okay if the EU were prepared to do the same - if they're not it's just another example of the sort of bully-boy tactics the EU likes to engage in and just one more reason why it's a good thing that the UK is leaving.
 
3point14 said:
I find it increasingly incomprehensible that the, let's face it, really simple rules of the EU are utterly, and, let's face it, willfully misunderstood by those stupid enough to be hoodwinked by Nigel, Boris, Aaron and Christopher. It's a very simple concept.

People
Money
Services
Goods.

Free movement of all four or none at all.
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No doubt you can explain why these "four freedoms" have to be grouped together. Perhaps it was a directive from God chiselled on stone tablets, found by some early EU prophet and carried down from a mountain?
 
Brilliant. That means I can still bring in all the low-tax / tax free beers and cigs into the UK that I like.

The treasury and messrs benson and hedges might be upset, but all I need to do is go from Spain (no hard border) to the ROI, into Norther Ireland and then on to, say, Liverpool in the post-EU Exit UK. Not a single customs check will prevent me from bringing in a transit van full of booze and cigs.

At least then, I have a backup plan when the economy tanks and the government have no money to pay me the dole.
 
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