Brexit: Now What? Part III

[Information Analyst]

The depressing thing is that a large number of people will still believe it

I met one pro-Brexit member of my close family this week who, after bemoaning some of the obvious detrimental effects since the referendum, and how bleak things were looking about how harsh a Brexit we may end up with, still maintained they'd vote the same way again. Madness.

 

[Strawberry]

I met one pro-Brexit member of my close family this week who, after bemoaning some of the obvious detrimental effects since the referendum, and how bleak things were looking about how harsh a Brexit we may end up with, still maintained they'd vote the same way again. Madness.

Not so surprising really. People who have bought into something and publically affirmed their belief in it find it hard to admit they've been had. Its why some religions encourage their followers to "witness" to others, it makes them less likely to leave.

 

[BobTheCoward]

I met one pro-Brexit member of my close family this week who, after bemoaning some of the obvious detrimental effects since the referendum, and how bleak things were looking about how harsh a Brexit we may end up with, still maintained they'd vote the same way again. Madness.

Could it be they just think the social benefit of greater separation is worth the blow to the economy?

 

[ceptimus]

Using the gross contribution figure, despite remain's best efforts to characterize it as such, is still not a lie.

It's like claiming that the salary you're offered by your employer is a lie because after taxes and other deductions you won't actually be paid that much. Nevertheless, when you ask people how much they earn (and when they give an answer) they're just as likely to tell you their gross salary as their take home pay.

 

[The Don]

Using the gross contribution figure, despite remain's best efforts to characterize it as such, is still not a lie.

It's like claiming that the salary you're offered by your employer is a lie because after taxes and other deductions you won't actually be paid that much. Nevertheless, when you ask people how much they earn (and when they give an answer) they're just as likely to tell you their gross salary as their take home pay.

It's a lie if you suggest that all that money is available to spend on other things....

 

[jimbob]

Using the gross contribution figure, despite remain's best efforts to characterize it as such, is still not a lie.

It's like claiming that the salary you're offered by your employer is a lie because after taxes and other deductions you won't actually be paid that much. Nevertheless, when you ask people how much they earn (and when they give an answer) they're just as likely to tell you their gross salary as their take home pay.

Not really the same. My gross salary is what I am paid by my employer. Taxes are deducted by the government, which is not my employer.

If my employer offered me a salary of 350-million pounds a week, but then said that they'd deduce 33% for my desk rental, then it would be a lie.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

The point was made that the major party leaders/parties lied about Scotland remaining in the EU if it didn't vote for nuScotland.

At the time of the last Scottish referendum none of the major UK parties were campaigning for the UK to leave the EU.

At the time of the last Scottish referendum all the major UK party leaders did not believe that the UK would be leaving the EU.

At the time the consensus that if a referendum was held the UK would remain in the EU.

Therefore there was no lie when it was stated that for Scotland to remain in the EU it should not vote for independence as that would have resulted in Scotland leaving the EU.

That circumstances subsequently changed i.e. the UK has now decided to leave the EU does not make those previous claims lies unless you want to say that all the public comments by Cameron et. all, all the actual policies of the 3 major UK parties were in fact lies because they all were planning to take the UK out of the EU.

I think you will be very hard pressed to find evidence of such, but if you do then I'll be happy to revise my conclusion.

There were plenty of things to criticise the various campaigns for without us rewriting history.

You are rewriting the lie to justify it. The claim is not that the parties knew we would be leaving the will and therefore lied. The claim is that they lied in insisting that Scotland voting for independence was risking EU membership while staying in was not.

To make that consistent they would have to have not only believed that the uk would vote to stay in the right but also that Scotland would be excluded from the rule if independent.

The truth is that given the only people fomenting for anyone leaving the eu at the time were little englanders it was dishonest to suggests that the risk came from Scottish nationalists rather than the true source. English nationalists.

Of course at the time we probably didn't realise that the Labour Party were quite so keen to throw the country under the bus but Scottish labour lying to promote the union and English nationalists isn't unusual.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Using the gross contribution figure, despite remain's best efforts to characterize it as such, is still not a lie.

It's like claiming that the salary you're offered by your employer is a lie because after taxes and other deductions you won't actually be paid that much. Nevertheless, when you ask people how much they earn (and when they give an answer) they're just as likely to tell you their gross salary as their take home pay.

Of course it's a lie. Is there no end to the bollocks brexiteers will tie themselves in knots to defend???

 

[Garrison]

Using the gross contribution figure, despite remain's best efforts to characterize it as such, is still not a lie.

It's like claiming that the salary you're offered by your employer is a lie because after taxes and other deductions you won't actually be paid that much. Nevertheless, when you ask people how much they earn (and when they give an answer) they're just as likely to tell you their gross salary as their take home pay.

This is what Johnson said:

The UK, he argued, would be "roughly" £350m better off once it had "settled its accounts" with the EU and he said it would be "fine" if "a lot of that money" was spent on the health service.

That is an outright lie, based on 2016 figure the amount 'repatriated' would be £252 million after figuring in the rebate and that still doesn't tell the whole story:

The Vote Leave campaign's claim argued that the money could be spent on the NHS.
Well, it could, but that would mean cutting all the money the EU sends back to the UK, for example on farming subsidies and grants for community projects.

And that doesn't allow for the increased government spending to pay the full cost of items currently shared with the EU or the potential impact of a post-brexit economic downturn.

Johnson is a liar or a moron, which is it?

All quotes from this article:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41289080

 

[Darat]

You are rewriting the lie to justify it. The claim is not that the parties knew we would be leaving the will and therefore lied. The claim is that they lied in insisting that Scotland voting for independence was risking EU membership while staying in was not.

To make that consistent they would have to have not only believed that the uk would vote to stay in the right but also that Scotland would be excluded from the rule if independent.

The truth is that given the only people fomenting for anyone leaving the eu at the time were little englanders it was dishonest to suggests that the risk came from Scottish nationalists rather than the true source. English nationalists.

Of course at the time we probably didn't realise that the Labour Party were quite so keen to throw the country under the bus but Scottish labour lying to promote the union and English nationalists isn't unusual.

Again you are trying to judge a statement's truthfulness using knowledge not know at the time. It is a fact that nuScotland would not have been a member of the EU if it left the rUK. Indeed some even challenged if rUK would still be a member.

Therefore *at the time* to campaign that voting for nuScotland would mean not being in the EU was in no way shape or form a lie and a vote for remaining part of the UK was a vote for staying in the EU.

It has subsequently been shown to be wrong, but that knowledge was simply not available to either the parties or anyone else at the time of that referendum. Not was it policy of a major party or the wishes of any of the major party leaders.

 

[Information Analyst]

Could it be they just think the social benefit of greater separation is worth the blow to the economy?

No, I blame it on them being a Daily Mail reader.

 

[GlennB]

Johnson is a liar or a moron, which is it?

Why the "or" ?

 

[jimbob]

Why the "or" ?

Elsewhere I have said that I used to think he was a clever person pretending to be an idiot, but that I had changed my mind to him being an educated idiot passing himself off as a clever person pretending to be an idiot.

 

[jimbob]

Sort of Fisking of Johnson/s Telegraph article

https://jonworth.eu/fisking-boris-johnsons-brexit-essay/

 

[ddt]

Why the "or" ?

The word "or" can also be an inclusive or.

Elsewhere I have said that I used to think he was a clever person pretending to be an idiot, but that I had changed my mind to him being an educated idiot passing himself off as a clever person pretending to be an idiot.

Or is he simply incapable of admitting he's wrong? His anti-EU stance goes back to his days as Telegraph correspondent in Brussels.

 

[GlennB]

Elsewhere I have said that I used to think he was a clever person pretending to be an idiot, but that I had changed my mind to him being an educated idiot passing himself off as a clever person pretending to be an idiot.

The word "or" can also be an inclusive or.

Or is he simply incapable of admitting he's wrong? His anti-EU stance goes back to his days as Telegraph correspondent in Brussels.

Maximum bilge? It worked for Trump ...

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Again you are trying to judge a statement's truthfulness using knowledge not know at the time. It is a fact that nuScotland would not have been a member of the EU if it left the rUK. Indeed some even challenged if rUK would still be a member.

Therefore *at the time* to campaign that voting for nuScotland would mean not being in the EU was in no way shape or form a lie and a vote for remaining part of the UK was a vote for staying in the EU.

It has subsequently been shown to be wrong, but that knowledge was simply not available to either the parties or anyone else at the time of that referendum. Not was it policy of a major party or the wishes of any of the major party leaders.

Where have you gotten that 'fact' that Scotland would not be an EU member from? It's a lie. As was the suggestion that independence was more risky to EU membership than staying in the union.

It was a lie then it's a lie now.

It was SNP po!icy to stay in the EU. It was Tory policy to have a vote to see if we stay in the EU at the behest of little England. Which was and is riskier to EU membership?

 

[abaddon]

Where have you gotten that 'fact' that Scotland would not be an EU member from? It's a lie.

No, it isn't. Think otherwise? Enumerate the Scottish/EU treaties please. You won't find any. Scotland has none. Not in it's own right. The indy vote was swung on the basis that a "Yes" would render an independant Scotland as an appellant new nation, but remaining part of the UK would render Scotland a continuing member of the EU under the UK umbrella. It turns out afterwards that the UK umbrella was all spokes and no fabric. Useless IOW. Were a second indyref passed now, it is almost certain that a fast track approach would be taken for membership of the EU.

As was the suggestion that independence was more risky to EU membership than staying in the union.

That is how it was presented. None in the corridors of power thought it possible that Brexit was even possible at the time.

It was a lie then it's a lie now.

Unfortunately not. At worst, it was a naive misjudgment of the mood of the electorate. And by electorate, I mean your English masters.

It was SNP policy to stay in the EU. It was Tory policy to have a vote to see if we stay in the EU at the behest of little England. Which was and is riskier to EU membership?

Sure. But it was painted as though the only hope of Scotland remaining in the EU was to stay in the union. Scotland got the poopy end of the stick. Again.

Look, I have a great deal of sympathy for the plight of the Scots, Nevertheless, nobody forced you to be subservient to the "little Englanders", did they? Except for the "little Englanders" and their imperial delusions.

 

[ddt]

That is how it was presented. None in the corridors of power thought it possible that Brexit was even possible at the time.

Wiki has a nice graph about the polling on Brexit. Green = Remain, Red = Leave. All through 2014 (the year of the Scottish Indyref) the trend lines were no more than a few percent apart.

Unfortunately not. At worst, it was a naive misjudgment of the mood of the electorate. And by electorate, I mean your English masters.

It sounds to me more the "misjudgment" as that you now have 350 mn/week for the NHS.

On Cameron's part, it could also be overestimation that he could wrestle even more concessions from the EU in his pre-referendum talks. It is clear by now that British politicians, as a rule, vastly overestimate their position w.r.t. the EU.

 

[jimbob]

Wiki has a nice graph about the polling on Brexit. Green = Remain, Red = Leave. All through 2014 (the year of the Scottish Indyref) the trend lines were no more than a few percent apart.


It sounds to me more the "misjudgment" as that you now have 350 mn/week for the NHS.

On Cameron's part, it could also be overestimation that he could wrestle even more concessions from the EU in his pre-referendum talks. It is clear by now that British politicians, as a rule, vastly overestimate their position w.r.t. the EU.

I'm pretty sure that abaddon's country don't have 350 million extra a week for the NHS.

A lot of surprisingly eager citizens who used to despise his(?) country maybe.