Brexit: Now What? Part III

[ceptimus]

The EU side, if it wants to get a deal, needs to start negotiating in good faith. The EU's present stance means that it's hardly worth the UK side bothering to turn up - crashing out of the EU without any deal is better for the UK than anything the EU is currently prepared to discuss.

This is exactly as I predicted months ago.

 

[Garrison]

The EU side, if it wants to get a deal, needs to start negotiating in good faith. The EU's present stance means that it's hardly worth the UK side bothering to turn up - crashing out of the EU without any deal is better for the UK than anything the EU is currently prepared to discuss.

This is exactly as I predicted months ago.

And again you repeat the same untruth, the EU has laid out its position, its the UK government that's incapable of coming up with a clear policy position. of course we know that you are quite prepared to watch the economy crash and burn just to see the back of Johnny Foreigner.

 

[Belgian thought]

What don't you like about the wording?

Well, it does not sound like a convincing argument for Brexit when you agree there will be short and medium term setbacks (pretty much undefined timeline terms) which may be better off - this time a comparative based on nothing tangible to compare to and, preceded by a 'may be' - again an unknown) in the long term.

You then finish by closing the argument with the term of self determination or, (the satisfaction of having greater control over their own destiny) as being the one seemingly true concrete result - or may I say emotional response.

It is not long ago that the UK, being a member of the EU, decided to go to war against Iraq without all EU members taking part, bar Poland with support from the Netherlands. An example of self determination within the club which the UK was allowed to take.

What more self determination would you like?

 

[The Don]

So do you think his laziness is a bigger handicap than his lack of awareness of is ignorance? Or is it his stupidity?

I'm willing to accept that I might have missed something - feel free to correct me if you think it is something else?


Rule of So where it is valid?

I think you have to factor in his unwillingness to learn as well, although I suppose you could argue that's a result of a combination of the other three points.

There's also his lack of any discernible leadership and/or motivational skills. As President Trump has demonstrated in the US, you don't have to be smart, self-aware or hard working if you can construct a message and whip up a crowd. Heck, the Brexit campaign did exactly that too but Davis seems unable to get anyone engaged in, much less enthusiastic about, Brexit.

 

[Wildy]

The EU side, if it wants to get a deal, needs to start negotiating in good faith.

Could you elaborate on how the EU is currently not negotiating in good faith?

 

[The Don]

You then finish by closing the argument with the term of self determination or, (the satisfaction of having greater control over their own destiny) as being the one seemingly true concrete result - or may I say emotional response.

Post-Brexit, the UK is likely to have a patchwork of military, security, immigration, trade and diplomatic agreements which will likely take decades to cobble together. Each of these will place their own restrictions on the UK's ability to do whatever the heck it likes.

Because so many of these will have been agreed during "fire-sale" negotiating conditions, it's highly likely IMO that the total net restriction on UK "freedom" may actually be higher than those "imposed" by the EU. I don't think we'll get our way 98% of the time with the US, China, India, the EU and so on post-Brexit.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

None of that contradicts my assertion that the staying in the EU was not a lie. For all three major parties at the time of the Scottish referendum they all supported staying in the EU.

Circumstances changed, that does not mean previous statements become lies.

The SNP supported staying in the EU too so if that's the criteria then it's still a lie to suggest the Union option was less risky. Cameron knew there would be an EU referendum and dishonestly told Scotland they were safe in the EU anyway while dishonestly suggesting that indyScotland wouldn't be. Lies. Just like all his vows apparently

 

[The Don]

Some more information about the costs of post-Brexit customs arrangements:

The head of the UK tax agency has said Britain could need up to 5,000 extra staff to handle customs and border checks after Brexit.

HMRC boss John Thompson also said a new customs arrangement with the EU could cost as much as £800m and take seven years to implement.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41275324

....and if they're saying seven years and £800m, imagine what it's actually going to end up costing and how long it will take.

 

[ddt]

So do you think his laziness is a bigger handicap than his lack of awareness of is ignorance? Or is it his stupidity?

I'm willing to accept that I might have missed something - feel free to correct me if you think it is something else?


Rule of So where it is valid?

No, just focusing on the first link in the chain that breaks. In order to establish his ignorance, the committee surely first has to speak with them. Davis' laziness hinders them from doing so in the first place.

 

[ddt]

None of that contradicts my assertion that the staying in the EU was not a lie. For all three major parties at the time of the Scottish referendum they all supported staying in the EU.

Circumstances changed, that does not mean previous statements become lies.

You're still slightly twisting the words of the three amigos. They claimed saying No to Scottish independence was the only way for Scotland to stay in the EU. According to wiki:

Research published by the Economic and Social Research Council in August 2014 concluded that it was unlikely that an independent Scotland would be cut off from the rights and obligations of EU membership for any period of time, even if Scotland was not formally a member state of the EU from its date of independence

That's only one of many opinions, but that would have been more a political than a legal issue, and where there's a will, there's a way (is that also an English proverb?)

Of the three unionist parties, only the LibDems unequivocally supported Remain in the Brexit referendum. The two major parties both had large minorities favouring Brexit, and had had them for like 40 years. Neither Cameron nor Corbyn was a very convincing Remain campaigner, and the referendum was set up far too easy for Brexit to succeed. Those 52% who voted Brexit don't agree on a lot of issues how that Brexit should look like, for starters.

 

[wobs]

Some more information about the costs of post-Brexit customs arrangements:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41275324

....and if they're saying seven years and £800m, imagine what it's actually going to end up costing and how long it will take.

Just the beginning.
Anyone wanting a career in the civil service will be in a good position in the UK, as we will have to greatly expand it post Brexit, as our bureaucracy mushrooms.

 

[Mid]

Just the beginning.
Anyone wanting a career in the civil service will be in a good position in the UK, as we will have to greatly expand it post Brexit, as our bureaucracy mushrooms.

It certainly been a boom time for anyone who's an economist, they've been hiring left, right and centre. And then generally ignoring any advice they receive from them or so people I know who have moved over to central government has told me.

 

[The Don]

Just the beginning.
Anyone wanting a career in the civil service will be in a good position in the UK, as we will have to greatly expand it post Brexit, as our bureaucracy mushrooms.

Damn Brussels and their bloated, and yet somehow highly efficient, bureaucracy

Of course we'll be spending 10 times as much on UK bureaucrats as we previously were on EU bureaucrats but these will be good, honest, inefficient, bumbling British bureaucrats and not those sneaky, intelligent and efficient foreign ones

 

[Mid]

Damn Brussels and their bloated, and yet somehow highly efficient, bureaucracy

Of course we'll be spending 10 times as much on UK bureaucrats as we previously were on EU bureaucrats but these will be good, honest, inefficient, bumbling British bureaucrats and not those sneaky, intelligent and efficient foreign ones

Actually a numer of the economists the government has recently hired who I know are EU nationals, be interesting to see how that works post brexit

 

[The Don]

Despite it being proven to be a lie, UK Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson repeats the £350m a week for the NHS slogan.

It's in writing so he cannot claim to have misspoken

The foreign secretary returned to the figure in an article setting out his vision for the UK's "glorious" future post-Brexit.

Mr Johnson said the UK should pay nothing to the EU for access to the single market and use it as an opportunity to implement lower taxes.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41289080

Lies and fantasy are all the Brexiteers have...

 

[Darat]

The EU side, if it wants to get a deal, needs to start negotiating in good faith. The EU's present stance means that it's hardly worth the UK side bothering to turn up - crashing out of the EU without any deal is better for the UK than anything the EU is currently prepared to discuss.

This is exactly as I predicted months ago.

Where will the million or so ex pats be resettled?

 

[Darat]

The SNP supported staying in the EU too so if that's the criteria then it's still a lie to suggest the Union option was less risky. Cameron knew there would be an EU referendum and dishonestly told Scotland they were safe in the EU anyway while dishonestly suggesting that indyScotland wouldn't be. Lies. Just like all his vows apparently

Again that circumstances changed does not make what was said a lie. If Scotland had voted to create nuScotland it would have had to apply to join the EU. At the time of the last Scottish independent referendum no major UK party believed that the UK would be leaving the EU.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Again that circumstances changed does not make what was said a lie. If Scotland had voted to create nuScotland it would have had to apply to join the EU. At the time of the last Scottish independent referendum no major UK party believed that the UK would be leaving the EU.

What circumstances changed? A vote was held that the government planned to hold. Are you claiming that all major UK parties believed that Scotland would not be an EU member following Independence? Or were they lying when they suggested it?

 

[Darat]

What circumstances changed? A vote was held that the government planned to hold. Are you claiming that all major UK parties believed that Scotland would not be an EU member following Independence? Or were they lying when they suggested it?

The point was made that the major party leaders/parties lied about Scotland remaining in the EU if it didn't vote for nuScotland.

At the time of the last Scottish referendum none of the major UK parties were campaigning for the UK to leave the EU.

At the time of the last Scottish referendum all the major UK party leaders did not believe that the UK would be leaving the EU.

At the time the consensus that if a referendum was held the UK would remain in the EU.

Therefore there was no lie when it was stated that for Scotland to remain in the EU it should not vote for independence as that would have resulted in Scotland leaving the EU.

That circumstances subsequently changed i.e. the UK has now decided to leave the EU does not make those previous claims lies unless you want to say that all the public comments by Cameron et. all, all the actual policies of the 3 major UK parties were in fact lies because they all were planning to take the UK out of the EU.

I think you will be very hard pressed to find evidence of such, but if you do then I'll be happy to revise my conclusion.

There were plenty of things to criticise the various campaigns for without us rewriting history.

 

[Mid]

Despite it being proven to be a lie, UK Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson repeats the £350m a week for the NHS slogan.

It's in writing so he cannot claim to have misspoken



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41289080

Lies and fantasy are all the Brexiteers have...

The depressing thing is that a large number of people will still believe it