Brexit: Now What? Part III

[ddt]

But remember, according to Brexiteers, it's the EU that has the democratic deficit not the UK where:

• The head of state is an hereditary position
• The upper chamber of parliament is a mixture of hereditary and appointed members
• The government polled 42%
• The government bought enough votes for an undisclosed sum from the DUP (a.k.a. the Protestant Taliban) to form a majority
• The minority government intends to give itself the majority on all committees

 

[The Don]

More Brexit bits and pieces.

Former Brexit minster Lord Bridges asks the UK to be honest about the [large] scale and complexity of Brexit.

A former Brexit minister has said the UK must be "honest" about the "complexity and scale" of leaving the EU.

Lord Bridges also urged honesty about the lack of time to reach agreement with the EU over the UK's withdrawal.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41249129

In contrast to Liam Fox who reckons it's easy-peasy

Meanwhile Jean-Claude Juncker is unsurprisingly saying that the UK will regret Brexit.

The UK will "soon regret" leaving the EU, European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker has said.

Mr Juncker told the European Parliament that Brexit would be a "sad, tragic" moment for the EU but that the 27-member union would "move on".

"Brexit is not the future of Europe. It is not the be all and end all."

Meanwhile Nigel Farage is continuing to spread lies about the EU

Mr Farage, the best known campaigner in the Parliament for the UK's withdrawal from the EU, attacked what he said were "truly worrying" plans to create a single president of the EU, an EU finance minister and a "strong EU army in a militarised Europe".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41252653

 

[Tolls]

Why does he give a toss anymore?
Since we're apparently leaving, why does he care what the other 27 states do?

 

[ddt]

Why does he give a toss anymore?
Since we're apparently leaving, why does he care what the other 27 states do?

Maybe he isn't confident that the Brexit decision won't be turned back? And his being an MEP gives him a fig-leaf that it's his "duty" to comment on EU policy.

 

[The Don]

Why does he give a toss anymore?
Since we're apparently leaving, why does he care what the other 27 states do?

IMO he's uncomfortable with the idea of an EU which is working towards fuller integration on the grounds that it'll be more difficult for the UK to attempt to "divide and conquer" and it'll be more painfully apparent what the UK is missing out on.

 

[Tolls]

IMO he's uncomfortable with the idea of an EU which is working towards fuller integration on the grounds that it'll be more difficult for the UK to attempt to "divide and conquer" and it'll be more painfully apparent what the UK is missing out on.

The man's just a complete git...

 

[Wildy]

It's exactly the same with the SNP wanting to leave the UK. The only difference is that a a majority of the UK did vote to leave the EU, while the majority of Scots voted in favour of remaining in the UK.

But many of those Scots voted to remain in the UK because they were told they'd remain in the EU if they did so. Is it really apt to compare those two votes considering the circumstances around those votes?

You're missing the point. We (the UK) can't decide the leaders of the EU - even if the selection of the leaders was more democratic - because we'll be outvoted by the Germans, French, Italians, and so on. It's the same problem the Scottish Nationalists have with being outvoted by the more numerous English (plus Welsh and NI) and the same reason for wanting to leave the respective unions.

Are you saying the issue you have with the EU is that the UK doesn't hold disproportionate power compared to the other EU members? Because that certainly seems to be what you're saying.

 

[ceptimus]

Are you saying the issue you have with the EU is that the UK doesn't hold disproportionate power compared to the other EU members? Because that certainly seems to be what you're saying.

No. I have no idea how you could read what I wrote and think that was what I was saying.

I don't expect the UK to hold any disproportionate power over the EU and, as I already said, the best thing the UK can do under the circumstances is exactly what the UK is doing - leaving. It's a shame we didn't leave many years earlier - but we are, belatedly, doing the right thing.

 

[Craig B]

No. I have no idea how you could read what I wrote and think that was what I was saying.

I don't expect the UK to hold any disproportionate power over the EU and, as I already said, the best thing the UK can do under the circumstances is exactly what the UK is doing - leaving. It's a shame we didn't leave many years earlier - but we are, belatedly, doing the right thing.

Then you will agree that Scotland would be doing the right thing by seceding from the UK. My experience is that Brexiteers (both Left and Right varieties of that movement) tend also to be strong UK Unionists. You evidently are not. That has gained my attention. Please let me have your comments.

 

[jimbob]

Then you will agree that Scotland would be doing the right thing by seceding from the UK. My experience is that Brexiteers (both Left and Right varieties of that movement) tend also to be strong UK Unionists. You evidently are not. That has gained my attention. Please let me have your comments.

There was a "hilarious" Scottish Tory campaign line that Scottish independence would have been bad for Scotland because it would be stupid to leave its largest market...

I might look for it later

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

No. I have no idea how you could read what I wrote and think that was what I was saying.

I don't expect the UK to hold any disproportionate power over the EU and, as I already said, the best thing the UK can do under the circumstances is exactly what the UK is doing - leaving. It's a shame we didn't leave many years earlier - but we are, belatedly, doing the right thing.

Still no example of disagreement between UK and Europe where UK was outvoted by the EU to justify our leaving??

 

[ceptimus]

Then you will agree that Scotland would be doing the right thing by seceding from the UK. My experience is that Brexiteers (both Left and Right varieties of that movement) tend also to be strong UK Unionists. You evidently are not. That has gained my attention. Please let me have your comments.

I'm quite happy for Scotland to secede from the United Kingdom if that is what the Scots want. The same goes for Wales and Northern Ireland.

I suspect though, that it's not what the majority of Scots want: last time they were offered the choice they chose to remain, and I suspect they will choose to remain again, if and when another referendum is allowed.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I'm quite happy for Scotland to secede from the United Kingdom if that is what the Scots want. The same goes for Wales and Northern Ireland.

I suspect though, that it's not what the majority of Scots want: last time they were offered the choice they chose to remain, and I suspect they will choose to remain again, if and when another referendum is allowed.

And if that decision or the decision to leave the EU was made because they were lied to then that's just fine as long as you get the results you want, right?

 

[ddt]

I'm quite happy for Scotland to secede from the United Kingdom if that is what the Scots want. The same goes for Wales and Northern Ireland.

I suspect though, that it's not what the majority of Scots want: last time they were offered the choice they chose to remain, and I suspect they will choose to remain again, if and when another referendum is allowed.

They were promised the sun, the moon and the stars in devo-max if they would stay in the Union. They were said that the only way for Scotland to remain in the EU was to vote stay.

There's been not a whit of extra devolution and now the UK pulls Scotland out of the EU. Both were massive lies.

 

[ceptimus]

Still no example of disagreement between UK and Europe where UK was outvoted by the EU to justify our leaving??

There's a fact-checking site here: https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-uk-influence/ that discusses the matter reasonably impartially.

As the site points out, each of the times the UK was outvoted was most likely very important to some people - even though the majority of the UK population probably didn't care (or even know) about the vote.

The reason the majority of UK voters were unhappy with the EU (IMO) is not so much to do with the UK being outvoted in the EU on a few occasions - rather it was the creeping loss of control to the EU. The UK governments of whatever flavour at the time may well have voted in favour of some measures, but that doesn't mean that their decisions were supported by a majority of UK voters.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

They were promised the sun, the moon and the stars in devo-max if they would stay in the Union. They were said that the only way for Scotland to remain in the EU was to vote stay.

There's been not a whit of extra devolution and now the UK pulls Scotland out of the EU. Both were massive lies.

And none of the powers grabbed back from the EU are being devolved and we already see the fomenting of a move to abolish the devolved parliament completely as the odious britnats keep pushing their small-minded little Englander agenda.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

There's a fact-checking site here: https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-uk-influence/ that discusses the matter reasonably impartially.

As the site points out, each of the times the UK was outvoted was most likely very important to some people - even though the majority of the UK population probably didn't care (or even know) about the vote.

The reason the majority of UK voters were unhappy with the EU (IMO) is not so much to do with the UK being outvoted in the EU on a few occasions - rather it was the creeping loss of control to the EU. The UK governments of whatever flavour at the time may well have voted in favour of some measures, but that doesn't mean that their decisions were supported by a majority of UK voters.

So basically the was no reason for it other than feels and your argument before was just bluster and nonsense? We weren't being outvoted on anything but the people were being convinced by liars that we were to suit their agenda and some fell for it.

The decisions were supposed by the democratically elected government that could have been voted out if the people disagreed with them but they voted for them anyway.

 

[ceptimus]

They were promised the sun, the moon and the stars in devo-max if they would stay in the Union. They were said that the only way for Scotland to remain in the EU was to vote stay.

There's been not a whit of extra devolution and now the UK pulls Scotland out of the EU. Both were massive lies.

Well, it's a shame they were made such lying promises, and a shame that a sufficiency of Scots believed the lies.

You will remember that the government tried also to influence UK voters to remain in the EU - also by telling a pack of lies (IMO). This time the lies were mostly negative - dire threats about how terrible things would be if we dared vote leave. Fortunately (IMO) the majority of UK voters (though not a majority of Scots) were smart enough to see through the lies and vote to leave anyway.

Note the IMO: "In my opinion" qualifiers. I don't doubt that your opinion will be different to mine - and different to the majority of UK voters. The vast majority of posters in this thread are from the losing minority "Remain" side.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Well, it's a shame they were made such lying promises, and a shame that a sufficiency of Scots believed the lies.

You will remember that the government tried also to influence UK voters to remain in the EU - also by telling a pack of lies (IMO). This time the lies were mostly negative - dire threats about how terrible things would be if we dared vote leave. Fortunately (IMO) the majority of UK voters (though not a majority of Scots) were smart enough to see through the lies and vote to leave anyway.

Note the IMO: "In my opinion" qualifiers. I don't doubt that your opinion will be different to mine - and different to the majority of UK voters. The vast majority of posters in this thread are from the losing minority "Remain" side.

Imo doesn't mean you can just say any old crap unchallenged. If you want that you have to paint it on a bus apparently.

 

[ceptimus]

So basically the was no reason for it other than feels and your argument before was just bluster and nonsense? We weren't being outvoted on anything but the people were being convinced by liars that we were to suit their agenda and some fell for it.

The decisions were supposed by the democratically elected government that could have been voted out if the people disagreed with them but they voted for them anyway.

I already explained that: A) the way our UK government voted on EU issues often didn't represent the will of the people. B) That sometimes the UK just went along with the crowd because they knew it was futile to vote against a measure that had overwhelming EU support.

There's no need for us to keep going over the same ground. I know you don't like the fact that a majority of UK voters voted to leave the EU, but it remains a fact anyway.

You fall back to saying they only voted that way because they were lied to - but that is naive in my opinion: In every political campaign / election / referendum we are fed truths and lies by both sides. It's up to voters to consider both sides of the argument, decide which things they are told they believe and which they don't and then vote accordingly.

The Scottish Nationalists in this thread think that the Scots didn't vote to leave the UK because the Scots believed the lies of the UK government, and they think that the UK voted to leave the EU because they believed the lies of the Leave campaign.

I offer the alternative (and undoubtedly unpopular in this thread) view that the Scots saw through the lies of the SNP campaigners and so voted remain - and the UK population saw through the lies of the Remain campaign and so voted leave.