Brexit: Now What? Part III

[Strawberry]

Is there such a think as a "British nation"; I'm sure our Scottish posters will deny that. And I'm frankly surprised at the rest, as I did acknowledge there's such a thing as an Irish country and I think in the long term, political reunification of Ireland is the only sensible solution.

It just gets a bit wearing tbh having to go over the same ground again and again. If I was a mod I'd put a sticky at the top of the page called Answers to Irish Questions containing essential basic general knowledge facts such as - there is no such country as Southern Ireland, and yes the majority in the Republic do want unity with the North according to every opinion poll ever.

As for the Scots, sympathetic as I am to the cause of Scottish independence, their ancestors willingly entered into a political union with England. Mine didn't.

 

[Craig B]

As for the Scots, sympathetic as I am to the cause of Scottish independence, their ancestors willingly entered into a political union with England. Mine didn't.

They did no such thing. It was immensely unpopular. The political elite sold their country's independence in return for access to English markets. They decided that the alternative - war - would be devastating.

In Ireland

The final passage of the Act (of Union, 1800) in the Irish Parliament was achieved with substantial majorities, in part according to contemporary documents through bribery, namely the awarding of peerages and honours to critics to get their votes. Whereas the first attempt had been defeated in the Irish House of Commons by 109 votes against to 104 for, the second vote in 1800 produced a result of 158 to 115.​

That was exactly the procedure in Scotland too.

 

[Strawberry]

They did no such thing. It was immensely unpopular. The political elite sold their country's independence in return for access to English markets. They decided that the alternative - war - would be devastating.

In Ireland

The final passage of the Act (of Union, 1800) in the Irish Parliament was achieved with substantial majorities, in part according to contemporary documents through bribery, namely the awarding of peerages and honours to critics to get their votes. Whereas the first attempt had been defeated in the Irish House of Commons by 109 votes against to 104 for, the second vote in 1800 produced a result of 158 to 115.​

That was exactly the procedure in Scotland too.

How come Scottish people always say they were never conquered and they're an equal partner in a union then? From what you've posted above it looks like the only difference between Scotland and Ireland's entry to the UK was that the Irish had the 1798 rebellion first whereas Scotland was conquered without firing a shot.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

You've moved the goal posts from a country to a state in order to get the answer you want. The UK is about to become the first state to leave the EU, so it can be the first state to have an internal border while its at it since the alternative is to wreck the economy and the lives of me and people all around me. If you don't like that, then a united Ireland, and if you don't like that then stop Brexit.

Wrecking NI in order to pander to the Brexiters is completely unjust especially since we voted against it.

Well states are defined by borders that's the point. I'm all for a united Ireland personally and that would certainly be a very workable and sensible solution to the problem. However creating a situation where one part of the uk is in but not really in and forcing northern Irish people to have border checks if they want to visit the mainland is nonsense.

As would be the results of snp requests for similar special status e.g. Separate immigration rules for Scotland.

All of this stuff merely shows how the uK is no longer functional or fit for its purpose and needs to be ended.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Hong Kong, when it was still British-ruled, was leased by the UK from China. So both parties acknowledged it was part of China. Yet it was definitely easier to fly from Hong Kong to London than to Peking.

I'm not sure if it qualifies the "preserve" in your description but otherwise I can think of a host of such areas: Macao, Gitmo, Panama Canal Zone, Akrotiri and Dekeleia, Diego Garcia (not even the natives can come there).

There are some funny Swiss villages that lie on the wrong side of the Rhine or an Alps range and count as EU (German resp. Italian) territory for EU rules, like customs and using the Euro. I think the "preserve" there certainly applies.

I'm not sure Hong Kong fits the bill but maybe we could lease Northern Ireland to Dublin?

The latter might be closer but again I don't think those Swiss folks would have to have passport checks to travel to Geneva. Or do they?

I also think the EU should be objecting to that potential solution anyway as it would clearly be discriminatory to one group of EU citizens over others.

 

[McHrozni]

Well states are defined by borders that's the point. I'm all for a united Ireland personally and that would certainly be a very workable and sensible solution to the problem. However creating a situation where one part of the uk is in but not really in and forcing northern Irish people to have border checks if they want to visit the mainland is nonsense.

Is it? There are no land connections, only air and sea ports. I agree it's not ideal, but I'm sure more people cross the land border with Ireland on a daily basis than travel between UK and NI. Passport checks on a daily commute route are a major hinderance, passport checks in places you occasionally pass through far less so. This could be a better solution than a hard border with Ireland.

I think Mexico uses (or used?) a similar approach, the border with US is highly porous to attract tourists, but they also run harder checks about 50 km south, to fight crime.

It's not ideal but it's better than many other options.

As would be the results of snp requests for similar special status e.g. Separate immigration rules for Scotland.

Yes, but since Scotland does not have a land border with another EU member, the request could be reasonably denied on those grounds. Probably. Scotland may get another go at that independance referendum anyway.

All of this stuff merely shows how the uK is no longer functional or fit for its purpose and needs to be ended.

The results of the referendum showed that, this is providing further evidence.

McHrozni

 

[Tolls]

Hong Kong, when it was still British-ruled, was leased by the UK from China. So both parties acknowledged it was part of China. Yet it was definitely easier to fly from Hong Kong to London than to Peking.

Bit of a nitpick, but the lease was only for some of the outlying areas.
Hong Kong itself, and later Kowloon, were ceded in perpetuity. The UK government decided, in the handing over negotiations, not to push the point in order to get concessions for how Hong Kong would be run.

 

[Craig B]

How come Scottish people always say they were never conquered and they're an equal partner in a union then? From what you've posted above it looks like the only difference between Scotland and Ireland's entry to the UK was that the Irish had the 1798 rebellion first whereas Scotland was conquered without firing a shot.

In fact they don't always say that. Sometimes they say

What force or guile could not subdue,
Thro' many warlike ages,
Is wrought now by a coward few,
For hireling traitor's wages.
The English steel we could disdain,
Secure in valour's station;
But English gold has been our bane-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!​

or

Black be the day that e’er to England’s ground
Scotland was eikit by the Union’s bond’​

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

People often sloppily use the words "country", "state", "nation" interchangeably as if they're synonyms.. So yes, I'd like some clarification on the issue.

If it helps.

We are talking about one nation state (the UK) voluntarily sectioning off one part of that nation state (Northern Ireland- Part of the UK) and putting up an internal border (within the UK) in order to preserve links with another nation state (Ireland)

The partitioning of Ireland doesn't fit that for any consistent definition of the players. In that case we have:

One nation state (the UK) dividing into two states (UK and Ireland) and putting up an external border between the two.

The 'Irish Perspective' to the extent it applies is pretty much a red herring since it was not Ireland or the Irish making the decision. Even if you apply it you get one nation state (the UK) voluntarily sectioning off part of the nation state (Ireland) in order to preserve the links of another part of the state (northern ireland) with itself (the UK).

It seems to me there are only three solutions for the question and in fact possibly only 1 that doesn't create a mess.

1. NI reunites with Ireland. (no mess)
2. NI become an independent country (unlikely)
3. NI stays in the UK with a border between NI and Ireland as with any other EU country. (bit of a mess)

 

[Strawberry]

In fact they don't always say that. Sometimes they say

What force or guile could not subdue,
Thro' many warlike ages,
Is wrought now by a coward few,
For hireling traitor's wages.
The English steel we could disdain,
Secure in valour's station;
But English gold has been our bane-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!​

or

Black be the day that e’er to England’s ground
Scotland was eikit by the Union’s bond’​

Robbie Burns was great but modern Scottish people say different, even Scottish nationalists. They always say that Scotland wasn't conquered and freely entered into an equal partnership and English people say that it was a bailout after Darien, like England did Scotland a massive favour by allowing them into the Union.

Are they all kidding themselves?

 

[The Don]

It seems to me there are only three solutions for the question and in fact possibly only 1 that doesn't create a mess.

1. NI reunites with Ireland. (no mess)
2. NI become an independent country (unlikely)
3. NI stays in the UK with a border between NI and Ireland as with any other EU country. (bit of a mess)

I agree that Irish reunification is the neatest solution. It removes the border altogether and ensures that those in Northern Ireland continue to enjoy the benefits of EU membership (for which they voted).

Should we also suggest that Gibraltar reunifies with Spain as a means of delivering the same to the overwhelming majority of Gibraltarians who voted to remain in the EU ?

 

[Strawberry]

I agree that Irish reunification is the neatest solution. It removes the border altogether and ensures that those in Northern Ireland continue to enjoy the benefits of EU membership (for which they voted).

Should we also suggest that Gibraltar reunifies with Spain as a means of delivering the same to the overwhelming majority of Gibraltarians who voted to remain in the EU ?

You can suggest what you like but Gibralter doesn't contain a large Spanish nationalist population who see Spain as their natural home so you'd probably be wasting your breath.

 

[Craig B]

Robbie Burns was great but modern Scottish people say different, even Scottish nationalists. They always say that Scotland wasn't conquered and freely entered into an equal partnership and English people say that it was a bailout after Darien, like England did Scotland a massive favour by allowing them into the Union.

Are they all kidding themselves?

I'm not sure that nationalists do in fact generally say that Scotland freely entered an equal partnership. But it is true that the country was not militarily conquered. The reason: Ireland was conquered peacemeal, because prior to the conquest it had never developed a viable central state apparatus. Scotland had one before the attempted English conquest of the thirteenth century, with King and knights and walled cities and all the other mediaeval stuff. This machinery successfully, though at great cost, resisted English encroachment. The Scots attempted to export this principle to Ireland, under Edward Bruce^WP, but the project failed, and

From then on the Gaelic revival failed to find a national leader. Its impulse remained local down to the end of the Middle Ages; its success was measured in the innumerable battles fought by local chieftains or confederations of chieftains. So while everywhere the Gaelic recovery of lost territories was remarkable, there was never any serious attempt made to unite Gaelic Ireland or to bring about the downfall of the English government in Ireland and the end of the colony.​

My second poetry quote is from the pen, not of Burns, but Robert Fergusson.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I agree that Irish reunification is the neatest solution. It removes the border altogether and ensures that those in Northern Ireland continue to enjoy the benefits of EU membership (for which they voted).

Should we also suggest that Gibraltar reunifies with Spain as a means of delivering the same to the overwhelming majority of Gibraltarians who voted to remain in the EU ?

I wouldn't be opposed to it if they wanted to but Gibraltar is a bit neater as it is and is already a special case anyway since it's an overseas territory.

I'm not sure what's being proposed for Gibraltar right now.

 

[Tolls]

I'm not sure what's being proposed for Gibraltar right now.

No idea.
All I do know, after having had one or two contract offers out there, is that a lot of people live in Spain and commute into Gib. How that's going to work if (when?) a hard border turns up is anyone's guess.

 

[ddt]

I'm not sure Hong Kong fits the bill but maybe we could lease Northern Ireland to Dublin?

The latter might be closer but again I don't think those Swiss folks would have to have passport checks to travel to Geneva. Or do they?

A correction: I had remembered it the wrong way round. It's about a German town Büsingen and an Italian community Campione that are Swiss for custom purposes. Geneva, BTW, only connected by a 2.5 mile wide strip to the rest of Switzerland, had (has?) free trade arrangements with adjacent French regions going back to 1602. CERN has a webpage detailing which suppliers have to show up at their French door and which at their Swiss door (mainly for VAT purposes).

But for ordinary persons there's no passport control as Switzerland joined Schengen.

I also think the EU should be objecting to that potential solution anyway as it would clearly be discriminatory to one group of EU citizens over others.

I don't see the discrimination between EU citizens. Where is it? We're only talking about special provisions for an area, NI, that's going to be outside the EU.

But the EU has an interest in keeping the peace in NI as they contributed in forging the GFA. It also has an interest in enforcing its objectives. One of those is that Schengen extends to all of the EU, and Ireland (the Republic) now has an opt-out due to the CTA. With the UK out of the EU, that opt-out becomes problematic. The logical solution would be that Ireland joins Schengen, and in order to keep the inter-Irish border open for human travel - which is something that everybody wants, from Belfast to Brussels to Dublin to London - that Northern Ireland joins Schengen as well. The alternative is that the hourly scheduled buses that go from Dublin to Belfast vice versa have to stop at the border, and everybody out for passport control. After all, you don't want Romanians to be able to sneak into the UK by taking a plane to Dublin, the bus to Belfast and then again a plane to London?

Customs may be a different matter altogether, depending on the amount of trade Northern Ireland has with the Republic and with "mainland" Britain.

 

[ddt]

And a hilarious piece of satire in the Independent:

Proper British jobs such as knight, chimney sweep, coming 26th in Eurovision and weeing in a foreign fountain will be reserved for BRITISH workers

 

[The Don]

And a hilarious piece of satire in the Independent:

Very funny and unfortunately preaching to the choir.

Brexiteers are confident that the negotiations are going well and that the EU will buckle to our will any time now

 

[Strawberry]

Very funny and unfortunately preaching to the choir.

Brexiteers are confident that the negotiations are going well and that the EU will buckle to our will any time now

The German election seems to be the latest meme. Once Merkel has the election out of the way, she will come riding to the rescue and insist on Barnier negotiating a trade deal straight away and nobody else in the EU will dare contradict her because we all know the EU means Germany really.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I don't see the discrimination between EU citizens. Where is it? We're only talking about special provisions for an area, NI, that's going to be outside the EU.

One EU member (Ireland) would be entering an arrangement with a non-EU member (UK) to give its citizens a special status in the UK - as I understand it anyway. There would be free movement of people between Ireland and the UK but not between say France and the UK. Unless they are saying there will be free movement between the EU and the UK as long as its on the island of Ireland? Also an odd arrangement.

I understand that the EU might want to accommodate this but it seems to go against the principles of the Union that everyone gets the same deal and there are no special arrangements for individual member states.