Brexit: Now What? Part III

[GlennB]

I'm aware of that, but it doesn't alter the point I made. How is recruitment now, this year, affected by something which hasn't happened yet?

Ninja'd by Tolls.

The perception that the UK is increasingly racist, which doesn't require Brexit to 'have happened'. Given the rise in xenophobic hate crime and the general anti-immigrant vitriol I see in some parts of social media I find it hard to blame the fruit+veg pickers for staying away.

eta: plus the exchange rate, of course.


Grauniad article. fwiw

 

[3point14]

I find it alarming that new downsides are uncovered on an almost daily basis, whereas the upsides are still the vague few promises of a "Global Britain", which remain without substance.

Any Brit should too. It seems that Brexit will create an isolated Britain, first and foremost. Even small advantages are at best decades away.

McHrozni

I have been asking, of anyone and everyone that will listen, for quite some time, for just one upside.

The only answer anyone has ever had that could be of some note is that we'd be able to bring back the death penalty...

 

[MikeG]

I have been asking, of anyone and everyone that will listen, for quite some time, for just one upside.

The only answer anyone has ever had that could be of some note is that we'd be able to bring back the death penalty...

Do you think that the vitriol and sneering directed at anyone who might express some sympathy with some aspects of Brexit is likely to lead to anyone wanting to answer this? You've added a nice little example, too, with the "bring back hanging" line, proving your question is not neutral........and in fact is nothing more than a trap. I could list all sorts of upsides to Brexit, but what would be the reaction? Further, it might lead people to conclude that I voted for it. So why would I bother? Why would anyone bother?

 

[MikeG]

The perception that the UK is increasingly racist, which doesn't require Brexit to 'have happened'. ........

Do you not think that there is an argument that this was caused by the referendum, not by the result?

 

[ohms]

I have been asking, of anyone and everyone that will listen, for quite some time, for just one upside.

The only answer anyone has ever had that could be of some note is that we'd be able to bring back the death penalty...

As we aren't withdrawing from the European Convention on Human Rights, leaving the EU would have no effect on the UK's ability to reinstate capital punishment.

 

[The Don]

As we aren't withdrawing from the European Convention on Human Rights, leaving the EU would have no effect on the UK's ability to reinstate capital punishment.

Thought that May was pushing to leave the Council of Europe too so as to be free of the ECHR

 

[3point14]

Do you think that the vitriol and sneering directed at anyone who might express some sympathy with some aspects of Brexit is likely to lead to anyone wanting to answer this?

You think I started this way? It's been a long, long time of listening to, quite frankly, flat out lies by those that wanted to leave simply for the sake of their own careers, listening to a feeble press desperately trying to be 'balanced' when it's patently obvious that leaving the EU is a ***************, listening to those who've been hoodwinked desperately trying to apply some post-hoc rationalisation to the worst political decision of my lifetime. I've been a long time explaining to people how representative democracy works and a million other things.

I started out quite polite, it's only in the face of overwhelming cognitive dissonance that I have arrived at this attitude.

I've given up asking nicely because I've given up expecting anyone to even grock that there's a question to answer.

You've added a nice little example, too, with the "bring back hanging" line, proving your question is not neutral........and in fact is nothing more than a trap. I could list all sorts of upsides to Brexit, but what would be the reaction? Further, it might lead people to conclude that I voted for it. So why would I bother? Why would anyone bother?

I started by asking nicely. Nobody had any answers but, mysteriously, continued supporting what I consider to be a lunatic course of action.

There is still no-one with any answers beyond, as I say, the thing about the death penalty.


Perhaps you can tell me:

What solid, positive upsides are there to the UK leaving the EU? Given that it appears our farming industry and our NHS actually need access to imported labour, can you name one thing that the UK will be able to do once out of the EU that's a solid, net positive for the country.

 

[angrysoba]

Do you think that the vitriol and sneering directed at anyone who might express some sympathy with some aspects of Brexit is likely to lead to anyone wanting to answer this? You've added a nice little example, too, with the "bring back hanging" line, proving your question is not neutral........and in fact is nothing more than a trap. I could list all sorts of upsides to Brexit, but what would be the reaction? Further, it might lead people to conclude that I voted for it. So why would I bother? Why would anyone bother?

Presumably nobody needs to because it is a done deal. Certainly that has been the argument from some of the Leavers when it is pointed out that staying in the EU might be better. I think there has been a lot of hostility from all sides of this, and while there may be sneering from the Leavers there has certainly also been triumphalist jeering against the "Remoaners" from the other.

So let's assume that the extremes on either side deserve each other, and put them to one side. For the less shrill, and I like to consider myself among them, would you mind putting the case for Brexit that you can imagine an idealized Leaver making?

 

[ohms]

Thought that May was pushing to leave the Council of Europe too so as to be free of the ECHR

The Tories quietly dropped that idea earlier this year on the basis that it would be a distraction from Brexit negotiations. Their manifesto stated that they would remain signatories of the Convention for the next Parliament.

 

[MikeG]

........So let's assume that the extremes on either side deserve each other, and put them to one side. For the less shrill, and I like to consider myself among them, would you mind putting the case for Brexit that you can imagine an idealized Leaver making?

No, I absolutely won't be doing that. I've really have fallen into that trap before. The danger is that I am immediately labelled as a supporter of Brexit.

Of course I recognise you as amongst the more balanced, less shrill. but others won't care who I am responding to.

 

[3point14]

No, I absolutely won't be doing that. I've really have fallen into that trap before. The danger is that I am immediately labelled as a supporter of Brexit.

Of course I recognise you as amongst the more balanced, less shrill. but others won't care who I am responding to.

And I therefore remain utterly unaware of any upside to leaving the EU.

I read downsides every day.

Not a single upside. And yet we continue on this self destructive course.

I'm really hoping that sometime soon someone will answer the question that you won't.

 

[MikeG]

........Perhaps you can tell me:

What solid, positive upsides are there to the UK leaving the EU? Given that it appears our farming industry and our NHS actually need access to imported labour, can you name one thing that the UK will be able to do once out of the EU that's a solid, net positive for the country.

If you'll allow me to list just two, without assuming that this means I think they are the primary factors, or that I think they might balance out other negative factors, then I'm prepared to do it as an experiment. Deal?

 

[3point14]

If you'll allow me to list just two, without assuming that this means I think they are the primary factors, or that I think they might balance out other negative factors, then I'm prepared to do it as an experiment. Deal?

Thank you, yes, deal.

You can verbally slap me silly if I get all lairy.

 

[jimbob]

There are some theoretical advantages.

The common agricultural policy is an utter mess. The common fisheries policy os pretty bad.

We would have the theoretical possibility of creating something better than those.


However there's no reason to believe that we won't get something equivalent or worse.

 

[MikeG]

.........can you name one thing that the UK will be able to do once out of the EU that's a solid, net positive for the country.

Thank you, yes, deal.

You can verbally slap me silly if I get all lairy.

OK then...........

1-Post Brexit the UK will be able to determine which goods attract VAT and which are exempt.

2-Post Brexit, the UK will be able to make trade deals directly with non EU countries (and trading blocs).

 

[3point14]

OK then...........

1-Post Brexit the UK will be able to determine which goods attract VAT and which are exempt.

2-Post Brexit, the UK will be able to make trade deals directly with non EU countries (and trading blocs).

Thank you.

 

[jimbob]

OK then...........

1-Post Brexit the UK will be able to determine which goods attract VAT and which are exempt.

2-Post Brexit, the UK will be able to make trade deals directly with non EU countries (and trading blocs).

I will give you 1

I would say that 2 isn't an a positive. We will have to make trade deals directly.

 

[MikeG]

I don't understand your point, JB. What is the downside?

There is certainly an upside that I am interested in, and that is the large number of barriers, tariff and non-tariff, to trade with Africa. Trade, not aid, and all that. I would love to see the UK sign a trade deal with the AU, or with the various regional trading blocs (SADeC, ECOWAS etc). I've lobbied for the EU to do such deals for 15 years or more now, and been disappointed but not surprised that nothing much seems to change.

 

[GlennB]

Do you not think that there is an argument that this was caused by the referendum, not by the result?

I'd say that the result of the referendum is what has emboldened xenophobes to get more public about their attitudes. Had it been (say) 52-48 'remain' the whole debate would have fizzled out, whereas now the more aggressive faction of 'leave' voters can hardly stop crowing. They see it not just as a victory, but their personal victory, and one that vindicates their xenophobia.

 

[MikeG]

Quite possibly, Glenn, but it is also arguable that the actual campaign (rather than the result) is what stirred up the hornet's nest. I don't mix with that sort of person, so I have nothing to judge this by. I'm just theorising.