Brexit: Now What? Part III

[McHrozni]

The Scottish independence referendum was on remaining in the UK it was not on whether the UK was or was not in the EU.

Remaining in the EU was a major driver for the campaign to remain a part of the UK. Scotland voted on it's independence on the understanding that being a part of the UK also meant remaining in the EU and independence meaning an uncertain future, especially as far as EU is concerned.

If a Scottish referendum on independence was successful on the basis that Scotland would be part of the EU then could not join would that invalidate the independence referendum?

No, but it could be a basis for another referendum to re-join UK.

Polls show a hard Brexit has increased support for Scottish independence. Support for either is now within the margin of error. Given how incompetent the British cabinet is, a successful independence referendum is not out of the question.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-scotland-idUSKBN15N061

McHrozni

 

[ceptimus]

Partitioning isn't always a disaster. The Czech Republic and Slovakia seem to have separated peacefully and successfully. Other partitioning may not have resulted in peace and cooperation but was probably more peaceful than the alternatives (e.g. Cyprus).

 

[Klimax]

Partitioning isn't always a disaster. The Czech Republic and Slovakia seem to have separated peacefully and successfully. Other partitioning may not have resulted in peace and cooperation but was probably more peaceful than the alternatives (e.g. Cyprus).

Funny you mention it. Czech-Slovakia partitioning was also made on lies and deception. Like Brexit...

 

[McHrozni]

Partitioning isn't always a disaster. The Czech Republic and Slovakia seem to have separated peacefully and successfully.

True, but Czechoslovakia wasn't a part of any transnational organization that would impact it significantly. UK is.

McHrozni

 

[Craig B]

Partitioning isn't always a disaster. The Czech Republic and Slovakia seem to have separated peacefully and successfully. Other partitioning may not have resulted in peace and cooperation but was probably more peaceful than the alternatives (e.g. Cyprus).

The Czech and Slovak parts of the unified state were a federation. It separated, just as Scotland and England may separate, into its constituent components, but the Czechs didn't pull Slovakia to bits when it left the federation, on the pretext, for example, that parts of Slovakia have an ethnic Hungarian majority.

The Northern Islands are part of Scotland, and have been throughout the History of Great Britain; and their relationship with the rest of Scotland will be decided, in the event of Scottish independence, by their people, and by the Scottish people and government.

To find a current example of imperialist partition, look at Russia's treatment of Ukraine. Annexing Crimea and inciting separatism in Donetsk and Lugansk.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I am not recommending it. I am warning that the suggestion of UDI as is suggested by some pro-independence campaigners my have unintended consequences. Some parts of the present UK may not wish to be part of an independent Scotland, the proposal seems to have been accepted that a sub part of referendum can be separately argued. If there is a case for Scotland not having voted to leave the EU; the case could be argued that other parts did not vote for leaving the UK.

The Scottish independence referendum was on remaining in the UK it was not on whether the UK was or was not in the EU.

If a Scottish referendum on independence was successful on the basis that Scotland would be part of the EU then could not join would that invalidate the independence referendum?

Always amazed at how quickly this red herring comes up in these conversations.

The people of the Northern Isles have never expressed any desire to leave Scotland nor is any such thing seriously proposed.

If they did express such a wish then they like any other people would be able to pursue UDI but I doubt they would want to.

There's no mechanism by which regions of Scotland get to opt out/in to independence.

 

[Planigale]

Always amazed at how quickly this red herring comes up in these conversations.

The people of the Northern Isles have never expressed any desire to leave Scotland nor is any such thing seriously proposed.

If they did express such a wish then they like any other people would be able to pursue UDI but I doubt they would want to.

There's no mechanism by which regions of Scotland get to opt out/in to independence.

Nor have they expressed any desire to leave the UK. The question is should they be forced to leave the UK if they vote to remain?

This is essentially the same argument as Scotland voted to remain in the EU, it is being removed against its will so a re-vote on independence is justified.

The Northern Isles have been part of a United Kingdom for longer than they have been part of a Scottish Kingdom to which they were transferred from Norway.

A mechanism could easily be created to allow regions of Scotland to opt in / out that is just a matter of political will.

It is always amusing to see what flags fly in Kirkwall when Nicola visits!



FWIW I voted on the losing side in both referenda. With the collapse in the oil price I would not vote for Scottish independence a second time, and I think Scotland in the EU and the rest of the island of Britain out is not a recipe for a successful Scottish economy. The concept of Brexit was not unheard of at the time of the Scottish referendum - UKIP existed. Certainly if there is another referendum I think it needs to be agreed that no further referenda on independence should be undertaken for e.g. 25 years, We are just facing a neverendum, I am sure that if the next referendum is lost within five years another excuse for a re-run will heard.

Get over it. The nation voted in a once in a generation vote to remain in the UK. This is what democracy is. The UK voted to leave the EU.

I want the Scottish government to concentrate on Scotland, sort out the schools etc. The SNP lost the referendum, they are a minority government they have no mandate to continually re-run the referendum until they get the vote they like.

 

[Craig B]

Get over it. The nation voted in a once in a generation vote to remain in the UK. This is what democracy is. The UK voted to leave the EU.

I want the Scottish government to concentrate on Scotland, sort out the schools etc. The SNP lost the referendum, they are a minority government they have no mandate to continually re-run the referendum until they get the vote they like.

That's pretty standard right wing unionist stuff. Be content with it. There's no need to add drivel about the Northern Isles. If there's to be no further referenda, it doesn't matter what the Shetlanders think, does it?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Westminster lied to Scotland to get them to vote to remain in the Union. Just like the Leavers lied abiut Brexit.
What was worse about the Scottish Referendum was that promises were made by Cameron concerning autonomy, finance and tax that have been walked back on.

 

[3point14]

That's pretty standard right wing unionist stuff. Be content with it. There's no need to add drivel about the Northern Isles. If there's to be no further referenda, it doesn't matter what the Shetlanders think, does it?

How often do you think there should be a referendum?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Nor have they expressed any desire to leave the UK. The question is should they be forced to leave the UK if they vote to remain?

This is essentially the same argument as Scotland voted to remain in the EU, it is being removed against its will so a re-vote on independence is justified.

No, it's a different question. What you are suggesting would be akin to Scotland becoming a part of Germany in order to stay in the UK (or maybe more realistically Gibraltar becoming part of Spain).

The Northern Isles have been part of a United Kingdom for longer than they have been part of a Scottish Kingdom to which they were transferred from Norway.

Completely irrelevant

A mechanism could easily be created to allow regions of Scotland to opt in / out that is just a matter of political will.

No, it couldn't.

It is always amusing to see what flags fly in Kirkwall when Nicola visits!

FWIW I voted on the losing side in both referenda. With the collapse in the oil price I would not vote for Scottish independence a second time, and I think Scotland in the EU and the rest of the island of Britain out is not a recipe for a successful Scottish economy. The concept of Brexit was not unheard of at the time of the Scottish referendum - UKIP existed. Certainly if there is another referendum I think it needs to be agreed that no further referenda on independence should be undertaken for e.g. 25 years, We are just facing a neverendum, I am sure that if the next referendum is lost within five years another excuse for a re-run will heard.

Get over it. The nation voted in a once in a generation vote to remain in the UK. This is what democracy is. The UK voted to leave the EU.

I want the Scottish government to concentrate on Scotland, sort out the schools etc. The SNP lost the referendum, they are a minority government they have no mandate to continually re-run the referendum until they get the vote they like.

That you supported independence as long as the oil price is high is amusing.

The concept of Brexit wasn't unheard of. But nor is the concept of living on Mars. However, the situation has changed.

Your proposal on 'no more referenda' is a bit pointless. No administration can tie the hands of a future one in that way. Nor should they be able to.

The SNP has EVERY mandate to implement its policy. If people don't like it they can vote for someone else.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Westminster lied to Scotland to get them to vote to remain in the Union. Just like the Leavers lied abiut Brexit.
What was worse about the Scottish Referendum was that promises were made by Cameron concerning autonomy, finance and tax that have been walked back on.

Exactly. What the SNP would be doing would be holding those who lied to account for their lies. The alternative is to concede that lying is the preferred tactic as long as it gets the result you want. It shouldn't be forgotten that Cameron was on TV walking back everything he had said in the Indyref campaign before the last votes were even counted.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

How often do you think there should be a referendum?

As often as the people of Scotland want one. How often do you think there should be one?

 

[3point14]

As often as the people of Scotland want one. How often do you think there should be one?

I'm not sure.


How do you know when enough people, say 50% want one? Some sort of formal poll?


How often do you think there should be a formal poll to establish if enough of the people of Scotland want a referendum?


Edit - how much do they cost? How often could Scotland afford to have a referendum?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I'm not sure.

How do you know when enough people, say 50% want one? Some sort of formal poll?

How often do you think there should be a formal poll to establish if enough of the people of Scotland want a referendum?

Edit - how much do they cost? How often could Scotland afford to have a referendum?

They vote for a party in the Scottish elections with 'hold a referendum' in their manifesto.

Let's face it if you elect an SNP government they are going to rightly push their agenda of Scottish independence. If you are tired of that then the answer is to vote Labour, Lib Dem or Tory in the Scottish elections.

 

[ceptimus]

As often as the people of Scotland want one. How often do you think there should be one?

1. If the referendum is the people of Scotland's wish, and only Scots get to vote in it, then who do you think should pay for it?

2. If the Scots get independence, how often should they subsequently hold referendums on whether or not they wish to rejoin the UK?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

1. If the referendum is the people of Scotland's wish, and only Scots get to vote in it, then who do you think should pay for it?

I don't particularly care who pays for it.

2. If the Scots get independence, how often should they subsequently hold referendums on whether or not they wish to rejoin the UK?

As often as the people of Scotland elect a party with that as their manifesto pledge. What an odd question.

 

[3point14]

They vote for a party in the Scottish elections with 'hold a referendum' in their manifesto.

Let's face it if you elect an SNP government they are going to rightly push their agenda of Scottish independence. If you are tired of that then the answer is to vote Labour, Lib Dem or Tory in the Scottish elections.

Once every four years at most then?

 

[3point14]

I don't particularly care who pays for it.

I think it's an important question. If Scotland cant afford a referendum and can't persuade anyone else to pay for it it's a question that you need to answer prior to actually having any referenda.

As often as the people of Scotland elect a party with that as their manifesto pledge. What an odd question.

So, er, once every four years at most?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Once every four years at most then?

Well it could be less than four depending on at what point in the cycle both were held.

I think it's an important question. If Scotland cant afford a referendum and can't persuade anyone else to pay for it it's a question that you need to answer prior to actually having any referenda.

The cost was apparently £15m. It's nothing in the big scheme of things. Less than a twentieth of 1 percent of the total budget.

[quote
So, er, once every four years at most?[/QUOTE]

As above.