Brexit: Now What? Part III

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That last bit looks like a personal comment, but that isn't a problem. I was merely making an observation about the conduct of people politically, as you are doing here, rather than about how many upmarket shops there are in Glasgow, which seemed an odd point to make. But of course you are free to make any comment you like.

So we can agree idiots behaving badly in George Square, contribute nothing to reasoned argument about Brexit (or as a possible consequence thereof another Scottish independence referendum).

I still fail to understand what point you were making with the posts. Or the need for a repost, it is not as if I challenged the truth of the report.
 
I thought my one word comment expressed my opinion of the article nicely, but for those readers who can't think for themselves I'll say a little more.

The article showed the writer's clear contempt for the UK outside Scotland - a contempt verging on hatred. It gave an example of exactly what I was accusing the SNP of, that is, an irrational hatred of the English.

I'll go back and read it and see what I think but even in three lines your equation of the UK outside Scotland with England says a lot.
 
Yes, you need to read. He mentions UK outside Scotland but then makes clear that his hatred is really directed at government from London.
 
So we can agree idiots behaving badly in George Square, contribute nothing to reasoned argument about Brexit (or as a possible consequence thereof another Scottish independence referendum).
Yes we can.
I still fail to understand what point you were making with the posts. Or the need for a repost, it is not as if I challenged the truth of the report.
I'm sorry and surprised that you don't understand these contributions. I would have thought they were clear from their wording, which didn't state that you had challenged the truth of the report. But never mind.
 
Yes we can. I'm sorry and surprised that you don't understand these contributions. I would have thought they were clear from their wording, which didn't state that you had challenged the truth of the report. But never mind.

OK I have tracked back the threads and I understand where you are coming from. We had talked about the cultural and historic ties between Scotland and Ireland, I had referenced the Ulster Scots, with the 'colonisation' of Ireland by protestant Scots. You posted;
"They have all manner of prejudices and some individuals are prepared to exhibit thuggish behaviour to enforce them. Here's another cultural similarity between Scotland and N Ireland. One we could well do without."

The post I guess is of supposed (and this does seem likely) Glasgow protestants, or members on an Orange lodge, or football supporters, but they might be from Ulster and resident in Glasgow, behaving badly. This does seem to support my comment about the strong ties as a result of Scottish Protestant migration to Ireland.

My knowledge of the history of the orange lodges means I do not know if the Orange order was exported from Scotland to Ireland, or arose in Ireland and came to Scotland because of the close contacts, or developed jointly in Scotland and Ireland. It is certainly not an 'English' thing possibly the only thing the English are not to blame for! Perhaps those nice Dutch people are really at fault on this occasion?

To be fair I am sure there are many protestants who lead utterly blameless lives and would not want to be associated with the people in the reports, and I am sure there are many people in the Orange Lodges who are members to support their cultural identity and do charitable work and would not agree with the behaviour shown. To say that this shows how Unionists, Protestants, Scots, Rangers supporters think or behave is wrong. This would be equally as wrong as to suggest the all catholics in NI bore corporate responsibility for the crimes of the IRA. Racism is when you take the faults of the few (real or imagined) and attribute them to the whole of an (ethnic / religious) group.
 
Yes, you need to read. He mentions UK outside Scotland but then makes clear that his hatred is really directed at government from London.

Which would not be a hatred of the English in either case so I really need to read and see how you have arrived at what seems like an odd conclusion on the face of it.

Give me 5.
 
Yes, you need to read. He mentions UK outside Scotland but then makes clear that his hatred is really directed at government from London.

Hatred of government from London is not the same as hatred for the English or the 'UK outside Scotland'
 
The English earned that reputation all on their lonesome. Consider the English treatment of the Irish, the Indians/Pakistanis, the Greeks/turks, the Israelis/Palestinians. Face it. English rule has borked everything it ever laid hand to. Were the english a superpower, they could impose their will. Not any more. They couldn't rule an empire consisting of a wet paper bag.

If Argentina seized the Falklands tomorrow, it wouldn't matter if it were right or wrong, England could do sweet fanny adams about it. Britania rules the waves? Good luck with that. It is no longer even vaguely true.

Do not get me wrong. I have the greatest respect for the various English military branches. Indeed, the SAS defined how special operations should work. Nevertheless, all of the branches must perforce operate within their assigned budget. And successive budgets on both sides over decades have resulted in the scenario one now discovers. England could have led, England chose to decline. Not much anyone can do about that. Except England. And they don't wanna.

England doesn't have a military, the UK does and most of what you mentioned was the British empire not the English empire.
 
Which would not be a hatred of the English in either case so I really need to read and see how you have arrived at what seems like an odd conclusion on the face of it.

Give me 5.

Right let's see then. I'll do this in real time. Paragraph by paragraph as I go through and look at the points made.

Paragraph 1. A complaint that some people who self-style themselves on experts on Scottish politics are far from it. I think this is a pretty unquestionable phenomenon - plenty of people who pontificate on Scottish politics rarely if ever set foot in the country and are therefore ignorant of the reality. He even mentions a specific individual. Whether that is fair comment or not on that person I don't know but it certainly can't be considered a slight on the English.

Paragraph 2. More of the same really. Although this time focused on the specific issue that was raised by yourself. The difference between wanting to leave the EU and wanting to leave the UK. So far nothing anti-English in the slightest.

Paragraph 3. Here he makes the point that the influence of the UK on Scotland is far greater than the influence of the EU. That bad policy from Westminster has a much greater impact on Scotland than bad policy from Brussels. So far the word England hasn't even been mentioned.

Paragraph 4. Quite a long bit summarising the relationship of Scotland with the UK. Some of the language is perhaps contentious - describing Scotland as a possession for example - but the point is not particularly arguable. Westminster trumps Edinburgh on everything and any powers that Scotland have are only there because Westminster allows it. The word English does appear here. However it would be hard to paint the phrase "We’ve got English votes for English laws, and English votes for Scottish laws too" as anti-English bigotry. Perhaps not quite correct in the details, but certainly not bigotry.

Paragraph 5. Solely devoted to the status of nations within the EU and nothing to do with England or the English.

Paragraph 6. A long piece on powers which the UK government have within Scotland. I think you could question his stance on some of these issues but not the underlying point that these are powers the UK government has that the EU would not. What you could not do is point to anything anti-English in there. Unless you think an attack on the BBC is an attack on the English but that would be a rather odd viewpoint.

Paragraph 7 simply repeats the point of #6.

Paragraph 8 is the same point with a bit of a go at the Tories. Again unless attacking Tory= attacking English then there's nothing there to object to.

Paragraph 9 makes a questionable point I think. That Scotland has less influence in the UK than it would in Europe. Nothing in the argument contains any bigotry however.

Paragraph 10 repeats the point with a possible snipe at Unionists. These Unionists are Scots though so would be hard to paint that as anti-English.

The final paragraph is a call to Scots to act and does not mention England or the English at all.

So, in summary, your accusations of anti-English bigotry appear to be laughable. Particularly from someone who has been railing for the UK to take back control from the EU.

If you think the above is bigotry then this kind of thing must blow your mind:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...-voters-take-back-power-from-brussels-or-quit
 
OK I have tracked back the threads and I understand where you are coming from. We had talked about the cultural and historic ties between Scotland and Ireland, I had referenced the Ulster Scots, with the 'colonisation' of Ireland by protestant Scots. You posted;
"They have all manner of prejudices and some individuals are prepared to exhibit thuggish behaviour to enforce them. Here's another cultural similarity between Scotland and N Ireland. One we could well do without."

The post I guess is of supposed (and this does seem likely) Glasgow protestants, or members on an Orange lodge, or football supporters, but they might be from Ulster and resident in Glasgow, behaving badly. This does seem to support my comment about the strong ties as a result of Scottish Protestant migration to Ireland.

My knowledge of the history of the orange lodges means I do not know if the Orange order was exported from Scotland to Ireland, or arose in Ireland and came to Scotland because of the close contacts, or developed jointly in Scotland and Ireland. It is certainly not an 'English' thing possibly the only thing the English are not to blame for! Perhaps those nice Dutch people are really at fault on this occasion?

To be fair I am sure there are many protestants who lead utterly blameless lives and would not want to be associated with the people in the reports, and I am sure there are many people in the Orange Lodges who are members to support their cultural identity and do charitable work and would not agree with the behaviour shown. To say that this shows how Unionists, Protestants, Scots, Rangers supporters think or behave is wrong. This would be equally as wrong as to suggest the all catholics in NI bore corporate responsibility for the crimes of the IRA. Racism is when you take the faults of the few (real or imagined) and attribute them to the whole of an (ethnic / religious) group.
Thanks. That's very much my view. I definitely don't think all Protestants or unionists are brutal bigots, of course. That's why I said that "some individuals are prepared to exhibit thuggish behaviour" as you have quoted above.
 
More "good news" relating to how the Brexit vote has, and Brexit itself is likely to affect the current Vauxhall employees:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39188465

In this inevitable fight for survival, the UK starts at a disadvantage according to most executives here.

Uncertainty over Brexit and the terms of trade with Europe is one handicap. The fall in sterling is another. Although labour costs have gone down, the price of the 75% of parts for a Vauxhall Astra that come from Europe has gone up.

Then again....

Having said that, Mr Tavares said that in the event of a "hard" Brexit, it may be more - not less - important to have manufacturing in the UK.

I guess it's a case of whether the size of the UK market is large enough to offset the additional costs.


edited to add......

and from that same article, here comes the shakedown...

Andy Palmer, the chief executive of Aston Martin agreed. He told the BBC that for a company like PSA - if there is a tariff wall - having some production on the other side of it could make sense as a measure of insurance against high tariffs and volatile currency moves.

For that to work, though, more of the supply chain would need to move to the UK and that takes government help.

That "£350m a week" is having to work very hard :rolleyes:
 
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More "good news" relating to how the Brexit vote has, and Brexit itself is likely to affect the current Vauxhall employees:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39188465



Then again....



I guess it's a case of whether the size of the UK market is large enough to offset the additional costs.


edited to add......

and from that same article, here comes the shakedown...



That "£350m a week" is having to work very hard :rolleyes:

Would have to run the numbers but in the face of it I'm struggling to see how the uk market supports car production dedicated to it rather than the half billion in Europe.
 
More "good news" relating to how the Brexit vote has, and Brexit itself is likely to affect the current Vauxhall employees:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39188465



Then again....



I guess it's a case of whether the size of the UK market is large enough to offset the additional costs.


edited to add......

and from that same article, here comes the shakedown...



That "£350m a week" is having to work very hard :rolleyes:

There is already a large automotive supply chain in the UK.
It should be possible to source everything they need from UK existing manufacturers.
 
Would have to run the numbers but in the face of it I'm struggling to see how the uk market supports car production dedicated to it rather than the half billion in Europe.

I think the idea is that they'd have both. A large operation in mainland Europe and a smaller one based in the UK focused solely at the UK market. The additional cost of the extra plant might be offset by avoiding tariffs.
 
There is already a large automotive supply chain in the UK.
It should be possible to source everything they need from UK existing manufacturers.

It may be possible but at the moment 75% comes from the EU. There would presumably be significant costs involved in changing from one set of suppliers to another.
 
The BBC has been staunchly Remain from the start. Their days of (supposedly) impartial reporting are long passed.
 
The BBC has been staunchly Remain from the start. Their days of (supposedly) impartial reporting are long passed.

#alternativefacts - of course :rolleyes:

Then again those of us on the Remain side were very critical of the BBC for unquestioningly parroting what we saw to be Leave "lies"
 
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