Brexit: Now What? Part III

[Strawberry]

People wanting Scotland to leave the UK = brave patriotic Scots.

People wanting the UK to leave the EU = racist moronic little Englanders.

If Scotland wanted to go it alone like Iceland, I could understand - but why would Scots want to wrestle control from London only to hand it over to Brussels and Berlin? And why are they so concerned about preserving their vital access to the EU market but don't mind throwing away their (at least four times larger) single market with the UK?

It makes no sense whatsoever and the only rational explanation comes down to hatred of the English, or as Archie would say, hatred of little Johnny Foreigner.

Iceland doesn't go it alone, they're a member of the EEA which means they are in the single market, signed up to freedom of movement and under the jurisdiction of the ECJ. I don't see why there should be any problem with Scotland doing the same, nor why they should be accused of anti-Englishness over it.

Its a bit ironic that you use Iceland as an example, btw, because unlike the Scots the Icelandics are quite anti-English.

 

[baron]

Lets make up strawmen time then?

What's the strawman? Do you mean that when you said

People wanting to leave the EU - SO THAT THEY CAN KEEP FOREIGNERS OUT - vs people wanting to leave the UK - while keeping the door open to others.

and

Racist? Moronic? Little Englanders? You said it, not me.

You actually wanted to stress that the English are no less tolerant of foreigners than the Scottish?

Because if so, that's a strange way of saying it, almost like you meant the opposite.

 

[baron]

Its a bit ironic that you use Iceland as an example, btw, because unlike the Scots the Icelandics are quite anti-English.

See my link re 'unlike the Scots'. Also, 'anti-English' sentiment in Iceland, should it still exist, is mainly the result of the banking crisis, i.e. anti-UK government, and not xenophobia.

 

[Strawberry]

See my link re 'unlike the Scots'. Also, 'anti-English' sentiment in Iceland, should it still exist, is mainly the result of the banking crisis, i.e. anti-UK government, and not xenophobia.

I don't think they were that fond of the English even before the banking crisis. See the Cod Wars, for example.

 

[ceptimus]

There is no such right. Try again.

If you aren't tired of looking silly that is.

Do let the record show however that when asked to support your claim of anti-English racism in SNP policy the BEST you could come up with is their opposition to nuclear weapons. This is the logic we are dealing with here.

It's not the best I could come up with - you just demanded one instance so I gave one. Your position is so weak that you try to move the goalposts every time I score a goal.

 

[Strawberry]

It's not the best I could come up with - you just demanded one instance so I gave one. Your position is so weak that you try to move the goalposts every time I score a goal.

When you tried to cast opposition to nuclear weapons as anti-Englishness, you didn't just miss the opponent's goal you lobbed it into the back of your own net.

 

[ceptimus]

I'm against nuclear weapons myself and in favour of unilateral nuclear disarmament and scrapping Trident.

That doesn't alter the certain fact that it is SNP policy, should they ever get the independence they crave, to deny the UK its existing nuclear submarine base.

I can provide other specific policies if you insist, but I'm quite sure you can see them for yourselves. If an independent Scotland continued to provide all existing rights to rUK, then what would be the point of independence?

 

[Blue Bubble]

If an independent Scotland continued to provide all existing rights to rUK, then what would be the point of independence?

Ahem, membership of the European Union (or had you forgotten that?) ...

 

[Strawberry]

I'm against nuclear weapons myself and in favour of unilateral nuclear disarmament and scrapping Trident.

That doesn't alter the certain fact that it is SNP policy, should they ever get the independence they crave, to deny the UK its existing nuclear submarine base.

I can provide other specific policies if you insist, but I'm quite sure you can see them for yourselves. If an independent Scotland continued to provide all existing rights to rUK, then what would be the point of independence?

Obviously an independent country isn't going to play host to the UK's nukes, there's nothing anti-English about that.

 

[ceptimus]

Obviously an independent country isn't going to play host to the UK's nukes, there's nothing anti-English about that.

He asked for a policy that would deny the English their existing rights. Do try to keep up.

 

[Craig B]

I'm against nuclear weapons myself and in favour of unilateral nuclear disarmament and scrapping Trident.

That doesn't alter the certain fact that it is SNP policy, should they ever get the independence they crave, to deny the UK its existing nuclear submarine base.

I can provide other specific policies if you insist, but I'm quite sure you can see them for yourselves. If an independent Scotland continued to provide all existing rights to rUK, then what would be the point of independence?

This is surely a joke. The power of the UK government to station Trident in Scotland is the same principle as English people enjoying human rights in Scotland? Do you really mean that?

 

[Strawberry]

He asked for a policy that would deny the English their existing rights. Do try to keep up.

The English don't have a right to nukes, let alone the right to park them in Scotland, so that was still a fail. Try again.

 

[ceptimus]

Ahem, membership of the European Union (or had you forgotten that?) ...

Of course not - again that denies rUK some rights. At the moment a UK resident has (almost) the same rights in Scotland that they do at home. If Scotland ever left the UK and joined the EU (that's not possible of course, but never mind) then a UK resident would have about the same rights in Scotland as they would have in France.

 

[ceptimus]

The English don't have a right to nukes, let alone the right to park them in Scotland, so that was still a fail. Try again.

You don't seem to be able to respond rationally and keep attempting to change the subject. I won't be responding to you for a while after this post.

 

[Strawberry]

Of course not - again that denies rUK some rights. At the moment a UK resident has (almost) the same rights in Scotland that they do at home. If Scotland ever left the UK and joined the EU (that's not possible of course, but never mind) then a UK resident would have about the same rights in Scotland as they would have in France.

Not necessarily. British people have more rights in the Republic of Ireland than they do in France due to bilateral arrangements between the two governments, and that won't change after Brexit so why shouldn't an independent Scotland make similar arrangements with the government in Westminster?

 

[Strawberry]

You don't seem to be able to respond rationally and keep attempting to change the subject. I won't be responding to you for a while after this post.

Oh deary me, how will I sleep?

 

[Planigale]

I think that the problem that I hear is that many Scots talk about 'the English' this or that. There is no homogenous English. Forty percent of London is non-UK born. This is an astonishing figure for Scots people to appreciate. In Glasgow I meet people who were born brought up went to university and now work in Glasgow. Even going to do a PhD in Edinburgh worries them. They tell me that Glasgow is a really diverse city compared with Dundee or Stirling (which may be true), but people from the West of Scotland are certainly fairly parochial (and I find it astonishing to see Orange marches on the streets of Glasgow, and Green or Fenian or whatever the other side is counter marching). When I ask them to imagine Glasgow with 40% being non-white and 40% being non UK born (note many of the non white population are UK born) they find it hard to comprehend. England has taken four times more refugees proportionally than Scotland. More people of Asian ethnicity live in Birmingham than the whole of Scotland. the non white population of England is about 8 million (15%) vs a total population of 5 million for Scotland (with a 4% non white population).

You hear how strong the links are between Scotland and France, yet there are twenty times more French people in England than in Scotland. London is the sixth largest 'French' city by population (about 350,000), walk round Marylebone on a Sunday morning.

I do not think you can use the term racist when talking about a racially diverse population as there is in England, perhaps nationalism is a better term but it has other connotations. However the 'lumping' people together and attributing to them common derogatory characteristics is in the nature of racism. Any argument that is based on the Scots being innately different and superior to the 'English' is a poor argument.

I am attracted to the argument that government should be at the lowest possible level (subsidiarity), but also think that a logical level of government for e.g. defence is the island of Great Britain. I personally am not opposed to a more nation like EU, with a more federal structure.

 

[Rolfe]

If Scotland wanted to go it alone like Iceland, I could understand - but why would Scots want to wrestle control from London only to hand it over to Brussels and Berlin?

https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2017/03/05/the-cow-in-the-caravan/

 

[ceptimus]

The UK is the cow in the Scottish caravan. It’s on top of us, it takes up most of our space, it dominates everything, it can’t be ignored and the stench of its crap fills the room.

Charming.

 

[baron]

In fact, if you check the figures for racist / xenophobic incidents in England and Wales vs Scotland, and adjust for population, you'll find that the number per capita is broadly identical. When you consider that Scotland has only 4% non-indigenous ethnicity as opposed to 15% in England and Wales, this doesn't exactly speak to Scotland being a bastion of tolerance.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...data/file/559319/hate-crime-1516-hosb1116.pdf

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-34911619