Brexit: Now What? Part II

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Has it occurred to you that if everyone else is "wrong"
Not everyone, some who back being in the EU actually have a point only those who blindly promote the EU and see no flaws in it are totally wrong.

I see some good things about it, but those good things are outweighed by the bad, and that to me was worth leaving for.

and that you are the only one who is "right" that it may just be possible that it's your understanding that is at fault ?
I am not the only one who is right.
Patrick Minford is right. Ruth Lea is right. Daniel Hannan is right. Boris Johnson is right. Nigel Farage is mostly right. Piers Corbyn is right. Dennis Skinner is right. Tony Benn was right. David Owen is right (this time).

Glaring errors have been regularly and repeatedly
alleged
but you seem to take no notice

Because the allegations are themselves born of faulty logic.

The thread, began as a what next, not what was.

What next is that we're leaving the EU.

It doesn't matter how much you moan, groan cry or complain, Britain's departure from the European Union is what is happening.
You seem to take no notice of that.

Whether you think I am right or not is irrelevant.
You were outvoted.

WE ARE LEAVING THE EU.

What next is that we get the negotiation team in place. Then we declare Article 50 and leave, whilst seeking good free trade deals
with the EU and beyond.

And that is what is going to happen.
 
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Meanwhile in EU land:
Guy Verhofstadt the EU's Brexit negotiator said:

https://twitter.com/GuyVerhofstadt/status/775366813836255232

Remember when the remain campaigners said there would not be an EU military?
Clegg said it, David Cameron said it, they said it wouldn't happen.

They also stressed the veto. But QMV is doing away with vetos.

The EU already has battlegroups and the Eurocorps.

This was one of my concerns.

Sigh. it is about a cooperation between EU armies. Not about integration into one big EU army. It is about like Europol and interpol which are not police department themselves, just local people designated to allow communication and coordination.

Well whatever airfix, we are wrong you are right and we have no clue. You said it so it msut be true.
 
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Ouch. Screaming.

With people seemingly wanting to wait for an election 1 year away a few countries away, I am waiting for the article 50 to be really invoked. I am not holding my breath until then.

Expect late January early Feburary for Article 50 to invoked.
 
Not everyone, some who back being in the EU actually have a point only those who blindly promote the EU and see no flaws in it are totally wrong.

If you can find someone like that in this thread then please let me know because I haven't seen one. I have seen people repeatedly pointing out how being in the EU is better than Brexit and providing detail to support those arguments.

I see some good things about it, but those good things are outweighed by the bad, and that to me was worth leaving for.

...and as people have been repeatedly and patiently pointing out to you:

  • Many of the things you don't like that you're blaming on the EU are nothing to do with the Eu
  • Your assumptions about the post-Brexit situation are wholly inaccurate and in some cases mutually incompatible
  • You don't seem to understand very much about the EU and instead have based your views on some kind of chariacture


I am not the only one who is right.
Patrick Minford is right. Ruth Lea is right. Daniel Hannan is right. Boris Johnson is right. Nigel Farage is mostly right. Piers Corbyn is right. Dennis Skinner is right. Tony Benn was right. David Owen is right (this time).

Their views are mutually incompatible and one thing that they seem to share is an outdated view of the world. :rolleyes:

If Piers Corbyn is as accurate about Brexit as is he about the weather (and his models as preposterous) then he can be safely discounted. A measure of his scientific "rigour" is that he's also a climate change denialist.



They're not just errors in interpretation. Basic errors in fact have been pointed out time and again and yet you continue to parrot the same nonsense.

Because the allegations are themselves born of faulty logic.

No they were not. And furthermore they have a sound basis in fact.

The thread, began as a what next, not what was.

What next is that we're leaving the EU.

We do not know that for certain. The single most popular post-referendum position would be to remain in the EU. Any Brexit position would be opposed by the 48% who voted remain AND a majority of those who voted to Leave.


It doesn't matter how much you moan, groan cry or complain, Britain's departure from the European Union is what is happening.
You seem to take no notice of that.

Whether you think I am right or not is irrelevant.
You were outvoted.

WE ARE LEAVING THE EU.

That is the current stated position of the Prime Minister but until Article 50 is invoked we are not yet leaving.

What next is that we get the negotiation team in place. Then we declare Article 50 and leave, whilst seeking good free trade deals
with the EU and beyond.

And that is what is going to happen.

That's your opinion of what is going to happen. What I, and other people are attempting to show you is that your assumptions about a post-Brexit future are unrealistically optimistic.
 

I'm sure there are but there are no plans for one. The fact that the Telegraph went with the scare quotes:

Europe forges ahead with plans for 'EU army'

Indicates that it is anything but....
 
The polls were mostly wrong before the referendum, esp the phone polls.
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/eu-referendum

The suggestion that post referendum the single most popular position post referendum is to remain in the EU is speculation without evidence. So let's just say "your opinion" instead of fact.

I personally do not know anyone who voted leave who openly regrets doing so.

I am optimistic, I see no point in being pessimistic.

I realise that we'll have to compromise, I wouldn't be surprised if we have to compromise on immigration (though a system of economic migration based on talents rather than nationality would be the fairest system).
 
The polls were mostly wrong before the referendum, esp the phone polls.
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/eu-referendum

The suggestion that post referendum the single most popular position post referendum is to remain in the EU is speculation without evidence. So let's just say "your opinion" instead of fact.

I personally do not know anyone who voted leave who openly regrets doing so.

Oh for goodness sake, let me try and explain that again.

I'm not saying that there are Leave voters who have reversed their opinion (though there may be and certainly the demographic split means it's likely that it's only a matter of time before Remain voters outnumber Leave voters) - what I'm saying is that the 52% who voted want such a disparate (and mutually exclusive) set of post-Brexit conditions that no solution will gain the support of a majority of Leave supporters (i.e. 26% of those who voted) whereas not leaving the EU will retain the support of the 48% who voted remain - it will be option with the most support.

I am optimistic, I see no point in being pessimistic.

There's a difference between optimism and a willful disregard for facts and reality. You seem to be a long way into the latter.

I realise that we'll have to compromise, I wouldn't be surprised if we have to compromise on immigration (though a system of economic migration based on talents rather than nationality would be the fairest system).

If we have to compromise on migration, i.e. we cannot bring down the shutters on Johnny Foreigner, then the majority of Leave voters will not support that.
 
Expect late January early Feburary for Article 50 to invoked.

Yes. I agree on one thing. The sooner we get rid of Britain the better. Hell, you should have invoked it already. Best part is how completely whole Brexit silenced exiters in my country. And you haven't yet even invoked article...
 
quotes from your links

"A UK government spokesman said defence was a national responsibility and there was no prospect of a European army."

"Britain's view was that EU defence co-operation should only go so far"

"Hungary's Prime Minister Viktor Orban said "we must give priority to security, so let's start setting up a joint European army".
The UK government has strongly opposed any such moves outside Nato's scope."

"UK governments have previously opposed the creation of a fully-fledged European army"

Whether people want it or not It is not happening while we remain in the EU. That could be for some time yet, or longer. The vote was not binding.
We have seen one PM commit suicide by Brexit. May wouldn't want the same fate.
 
Oh for goodness sake, let me try and explain that again.

I'm not saying that there are Leave voters who have reversed their opinion (though there may be and certainly the demographic split means it's likely that it's only a matter of time before Remain voters outnumber Leave voters) - what I'm saying is that the 52% who voted want such a disparate (and mutually exclusive) set of post-Brexit conditions that no solution will gain the support of a majority of Leave supporters (i.e. 26% of those who voted) whereas not leaving the EU will retain the support of the 48% who voted remain - it will be option with the most support.

I accept that if it had been a multi option referendum instead of a binary one, remain would probably have won. But it was a binary choice in / out.

Out won and it looks like we're not having another in / out referendum for at least a generation.

If there is another UK wide referendum following from June's vote it will be about what OUT looks like.
Going by government statements so far, remaining won't be an option on the voting sheet if there is a voting sheet.


If we have to compromise on migration, i.e. we cannot bring down the shutters on Johnny Foreigner, then the majority of Leave voters will not support that.

Brexit wasn't just about immigration and those who proposed migration control weren't proposing shutting the door on "all" foreigners.
And they certainly weren't proposing deportations of legal immigrants.
 
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I accept that if it had been a multi option referendum instead of a binary one, remain would probably have won. But it was a binary choice in / out.

Out won and it looks like we're not having another in / out referendum for at least a generation.

If there is another UK wide referendum following from June's vote it will be about what OUT looks like.

...and you know this how ?

Going by government statements so far, remaining won't be an option on the voting sheet if there is a voting sheet.

Who knows what the future holds. Perhaps some canny politician will realise how damaging Brexit will be.


Brexit wasn't just about immigration and those who proposed migration control weren't proposing shutting the door on "all" foreigners.
And they certainly weren't proposing deportations of legal immigrants.

You're right, it was just largely about immigration - at least according to those involved

Ms Rudd said it was a "given" people voted Leave to reduce immigration.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37332282

Some of those proposing migration control we talking about zero net migration.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-almost-zero-if-uk-leaves-eu-says-david-davis

...and deportations:

Brexit minister David Davis: UK can deport new EU migrants and still get good deal on single market access

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-get-good-deal-on-single-market-a7141836.html
 
_89173521_leave_leaflet.jpg


These were the points in the official Vote Leave campaign leaflet.
 
[qimg]http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/30F9/production/_89173521_leave_leaflet.jpg[/qimg]

These were the points in the official Vote Leave campaign leaflet.

Yes, and ?

It's not the only communication from the official Leave campaign and of course there was an entirely separate campaigning group led by Nigel Farage.

It is however interesting to spot the lies, spin scaremongering and half truths even in that document.
 
Meanwhile in EU land:
Guy Verhofstadt the EU's Brexit negotiator said:

https://twitter.com/GuyVerhofstadt/status/775366813836255232

Remember when the remain campaigners said there would not be an EU military?
Clegg said it, David Cameron said it, they said it wouldn't happen.

They also stressed the veto. But QMV is doing away with vetos.

The EU already has battlegroups and the Eurocorps.

This was one of my concerns.

Why is an integrated european military force so bad? It can't be worse than the **** up we have now, underfunding, aircraft carriers without aircraft, only 7 squadrons of combat aircraft, not enough ships to even patrol our fisheries and oilfields, Infantry battalions with chronic shortages of troops because they were supposed to be replaced by part time Territorials but the govt decided to sack the regulars before they recruited the Territorials. And that's just for starters.

But we csn afford more than a dozen military bands and entire regiments of cavelry men on horses and horse drawn artillery to parade for the Queen once a year on her birthday.

It's akways a puzzle to me why the British Army has over 500 horses and less than 200 tanks.
 
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As for Terrys and Cadbury Chocolate, they were profitable companies sold out by their patriotic British shareholders, boards and CEOs to American companies to make a fast buck. Their demise as always with British industry has nothing to do with the EU and eveything to do with the Tory bastards that own them who would cut the throats of their own mothers if they thought it would make a profit.
 
[qimg]http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/30F9/production/_89173521_leave_leaflet.jpg[/qimg]

These were the points in the official Vote Leave campaign leaflet.
So let's look at those points..

1) "The UK joined the European Union in 1973. Back then it was known as the Common Market".
No really, it wasn't. It was only nicknamed such in the UK, but in no other country. And the politicians of the day - there was also a referendum in 1975 - were very upfront about the vision that the EU would lead to ever tighter integration in all kind of aspects.

2) "When we joined, there were just 9 member states".
Duh. And you didn't think even back then, in 1973, that Spain wouldn't join when Franco croaked, or Portugal when Salazar did, or Greece when the colonels were deposed, or Sweden, or Finland, or Austria just when they wanted, or that the Eastern European states would join after the fall of the Iron Curtain? Okay, the latter was a very distant prospect but all the other ones were very realistic short-term events.

3) "More than half of the net migration of the UK comes from the EU".
So what? What's the point to this point? I'm really lost about this one. At least those immigrants are not dirty brown Muslim Pakis. :rolleyes:

4) "While we're in the EU, the UK can't make trade deals on our own".
Rejoice because if you would, you even couldn't as the current situation shows. The EU is ready to negotiate the Brexit, and you have to hire ex-colonials to help you out.

5) "The EU costs $350 million a week. That's enough to build a NHS hospital a week."
The Brexit vote is now what? 15 weeks ago. Where are those 15 hospitals? It's a ludicrous comparison and it says nothing about the benefits.

6) "You don't have to be a member of the EU to trade with it. Switzerland is not in the EU and it exports more per person to the EU than we do."
Oooh, Switzerland is the alternative they want? Which has umpteen treaties with the EU which are all intertwined: violate one, you violate all. And which is already sanctioned for the 2014 referendum about restricting immigration?

I also have to wonder about the claim that multinationals are pro-EU while SMEs are not. It is in fact the SMEs which profit most from being in the EU and thus cutting a lot of red tape. While a multinational can easily set up a department to deal with all the red tape, an SME cannot. See The Don for a concrete example.

7) "EU law overrides UK law. This stops the British public from being able to vote out the politicians who make our laws."
You know that first one since 1973. And I think it's good. The second sentence is a bald-faced lie. Those EU laws are voted on by the EP, and you get to vote for the EP.

8) "There are risks voting either way".
That's another bald-faced lie. You know what you have. You don't know what you get when you vote for Brexit. And this leaflet does not even provide a clear policy proposal. It suggests cutting immigration and then touts Switzerland as an alternative - a country that was at the very same time already sanctioned for doing that.
 
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