Cont: Brexit: Now What? Part 6. Pick up sticks...

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If you don't mind could you break down why his arguments relating to how there can be an invisible border in relation to customs and goods doesn't stack up?

All he does is say an “invisible border” could solve all the problems, he never makes an argument for how what that means or how it could work. I’m not sure how you expect anyone to “break down arguments” he doesn’t bother to make.
 
Can you please substantiate that MEP's were not able to "properly review the science and the evidence"?

I'll keep this brief as this isn't the topic of the thread but basically:

Article 20 (the bit that pertains to vaping) was tacked onto the TPD and was drafted in a rushed process called trilogue . this is basically a behind closed doors series of meeting with EU lawyers and some other interested parties, to hammer out the text of directives.

The people in the meetings for Article 20 of the TPD didn't include any pro-vaping people or anyone representing the lots of credible scientific research that was being done at the time. IIRC we had something like 7 or 8 peer reviewed papers from proper scientific journals detailing exactly how and why the directive was bad all of which was hand waved away by the trilogue committee and wasn't properly debated prior to the vote.
They drafted a dogs dinner of a directive as a result of lack of expertise and lack of consultation.

Here is a blog from the time from Clive Bates. Clive is a former director of ASH (Action on Smoking and Health) and has also worked as a civil servant for the cabinet office and Environment Agency, so in short he knows what he's talking about.

Clive Bates said:
Shoddy drafting and improper undemocratic amendments. [...]
It simply is not credible to produce 4,500 words of new regulation in a closed and insular process between October and December 2013 with no consultation with these stakeholders. Not only has that led to poorly designed regulation, but it violates obligations set out in the EU treaties, which require consultation on legislative proposals [...]
Flawed science, inadequate analysis. For EU legislation to be good for public health, and therefore to have a firm legal base, it needs to be based on sound science and analysis. To the extent that science has been used to justify the proposals, it has drawn stinging criticism from the scientists whose work has been cited. See: Scientific errors in the Tobacco Products Directive – a letter sent by scientists to the European Union and follow-up. The supporting analysis for this part of the directive is completely inadequate: there is no impact assessment or credible justification for the measures. The little there is (a one page fact sheet) has been dismissed by experts as a set of scientifically baseless assertions. [...]

To top all that off the President of the European Parliament at the time Martin Schulz refused initially to allow split and separate voting for different aspects of the TPD (which was and is, in most part, a good directive) changing his mind an hour before the vote took place (Feb 26th 2014) then he refused to allow more time for stakeholders to make their case against article 18A (which later became Article 20) so the whole thing got passed in a very rushed vote. (this is the political dirty trick I am referring to)

MEP Martin Callanan (now Lord Callanan) stood up in the EP immediately before the vote to try to make the case for having more time to review Article18A and was shut down in short order.


I am not saying it's undemocratic because I didn't get my way, I am saying it's undemocratic because directives that effect millions of Europeans should at least be drafted by people who have expertise on the subject at hand and then properly debated before being voted on.

It turns out that many EU directives are drafted using trilogue, which seems to me to be a very flawed process.

EU directives, by and large, reflect the desires of corporate lobbyists and not what would actually be best for the people.

I'll happily go into more depth if you are interested on the TPD, but not in this thread. The full text of the TPD is here.
 
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Since it appears that it's just England who wants to leave, couldn't you put the hard border between England and the rest of the UK?
 
I am missing the leap in logic that goes from this to '...and so the only thing we can do is throw the entire country under the bus, put the economy into meltdown and let the corpse be picked over by a cabal of disaster capitalists'

Hyperbole much?

I never thought that the Leave vote would win. At the time the pollsters and the bookmakers (who are usually a better gauge of the true odds of events happening) had it pegged at 60% Remain 40% Leave.

I expected Remain to win something like 55/45 and for the high % of Leave votes to kick off a debate within the EU about reform.

There wasn't an option on the ballot paper for "remain and reform" given the recent, at the time Greece debt crisis, and what looked like similar impending scenarios for Ireland Spain and Italy I thought that we'd be better off out of the EU. So I voted Leave. Lets not forget that while the Greek debacle was ongoing it tanked the value of the Euro and there were were plenty of people who were very glad we withdrew from the ERM back in the day.

What I wasn't expecting, at all, was how spineless and inept our current crop of politicians would turn out to be. Mays Brexit deal is a disaster, Corbyns Labour is utterly unelectable and the current govt is beholden to the whims of the DUP (the DU ******* P of *all* parties!!!) or that Brexit would drag on and on and on. The way things are going it'll be a decade until it's resolved.
 
Since it appears that it's just England who wants to leave, couldn't you put the hard border between England and the rest of the UK?
And the people who also voted to leave but don't live in England, for example the thirty odd percentage of folk who voted in Scotland to leave, should be moved to England?
 
And the people who also voted to leave but don't live in England, for example the thirty odd percentage of folk who voted in Scotland to leave, should be moved to England?

As sane as playing football/rugby with Northern Ireland border.
 
Remain is the sensible choice, but circumstantially constrained.

May's deal is the pragmatic choice, a bastard child of circumstance.

No deal is the ideologue's wet dream, leading to dire circumstances.


The circumstantial evidence is that neither Brexit nor Remain will do, and there can be no middle compromise. There is but one thing to do: hang David Cameron in effigy from London Tower and have fireworks. Following that, it's every man for himself... Personally, I'd go punch pimply Farage in his face, then start smoking cigars again, now unlikely to be a cause of death. Silver linings, old chap.

I find it worrying that, in these times, the above is what a perfectly reasonable reaction looks like.

Dave
 
What I wasn't expecting, at all, was how spineless and inept our current crop of politicians would turn out to be. Mays Brexit deal is a disaster, Corbyns Labour is utterly unelectable and the current govt is beholden to the whims of the DUP (the DU ******* P of *all* parties!!!) or that Brexit would drag on and on and on. The way things are going it'll be a decade until it's resolved.

But I don't (and never have) seen how the deal could be anything but some form of Norway, almost entirely down to the Irish border issue (well, that and not wanting to shaft our economy entirely). Of course, May has managed to come up with something even worse, but hey ho.

The idea that "it'll all be OK in a few years" is crap. Those "few years" (or 50 years if you believe Mogg) will screw over a generation.
 
All he does is say an “invisible border” could solve all the problems, he never makes an argument for how what that means or how it could work. I’m not sure how you expect anyone to “break down arguments” he doesn’t bother to make.

For example he could have pointed to any border in the world that acts like he says this one will.
 
And the people who also voted to leave but don't live in England, for example the thirty odd percentage of folk who voted in Scotland to leave, should be moved to England?

Well they could do, or they could stay in the EU with the 70% who wanted to stay in. I mean that would certainly be fairer than pulling the 70% out to please the 30% who want to stay.

Or they could stay in the Customs Union and Single Market like Northern Ireland.
 
Hyperbole much?

I never thought that the Leave vote would win. At the time the pollsters and the bookmakers (who are usually a better gauge of the true odds of events happening) had it pegged at 60% Remain 40% Leave.

I expected Remain to win something like 55/45 and for the high % of Leave votes to kick off a debate within the EU about reform.

There wasn't an option on the ballot paper for "remain and reform" given the recent, at the time Greece debt crisis, and what looked like similar impending scenarios for Ireland Spain and Italy I thought that we'd be better off out of the EU. So I voted Leave. Lets not forget that while the Greek debacle was ongoing it tanked the value of the Euro and there were were plenty of people who were very glad we withdrew from the ERM back in the day.

What I wasn't expecting, at all, was how spineless and inept our current crop of politicians would turn out to be. Mays Brexit deal is a disaster, Corbyns Labour is utterly unelectable and the current govt is beholden to the whims of the DUP (the DU ******* P of *all* parties!!!) or that Brexit would drag on and on and on. The way things are going it'll be a decade until it's resolved.

Your entire reasoning just comes across as a childish temper tantrum. You voted to leave but you never thought it would win?!? You wanted to leave because of some imperfect legislation that happened to affect you personally but ignore the likely results of that vote that will affect millions.

And if you think May's deal is a disaster perhaps you could outline what version of leaving would be superior? Because there simply doesn't exist a version of leave that is achievable that doesn't end up with us worse off than when we started.

Of course it will be at least a decade until it is resolved. We have been building the thing for decades and strengthening our links with Europe all the time. Does anyone but the clinically insane think that these things can be undone in a matter of months or worse that you can just walk away and not suffer the consequences?

It's like deciding to leave a flight midway over the Atlantic because you decided you want to go to Spain instead. |You can ask the pilot to reroute all you want but he isn't going to and you may not want to wait until you land in America and have to pay again for a flight back but the option of opening the door and jumping out isn't one that anyone with any sense would take seriously.
 
And the people who also voted to leave but don't live in England, for example the thirty odd percentage of folk who voted in Scotland to leave, should be moved to England?

Sure, there will be plenty of space for 1½ million Scots Leavers in England after 15 million English Remainers move to Scotland. :)
 
… It's like deciding to leave a flight midway over the Atlantic because you decided you want to go to Spain instead. |You can ask the pilot to reroute all you want but he isn't going to and you may not want to wait until you land in America and have to pay again for a flight back but the option of opening the door and jumping out isn't one that anyone with any sense would take seriously.

But remarkably that's exactly what happened: The Vote Leave campaign promised we'd negotiate a stop-off in Spain before we got off the plane, then it turned out there was no way to do that so we just jumped out of the plane anyway leaving David Davies to build us a parachute while we plummeted.

Now the argument is over whether to use the wonky parachute or not, even though it turns out we can also simply choose to get back on the plane.

The more rampant Leavers are pounding the table and insisting the Will of the People was to leap out of the plane, when the actual vote was to go to Spain. The polls, meanwhile, indicate we've gone off the idea of Spain.
 
I'm still massively frustrated by the absolute lack of consideration for the fact that the referendum was flawed by illegal activity.

Why the whole of the media is still pretending it's valid is beyond me.
 
I'm still massively frustrated by the absolute lack of consideration for the fact that the referendum was flawed by illegal activity.

Why the whole of the media is still pretending it's valid is beyond me.

Bearing in mind that the ground was prepared by a fair sized segment of said media waging a decades long anti-EU propaganda campaign, I don't find it so far beyond me.

Dave
 
Bearing in mind that the ground was prepared by a fair sized segment of said media waging a decades long anti-EU propaganda campaign, I don't find it so far beyond me.

Dave

Given this from just yesterday:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-46460194

"The company which the Electoral Commission suspects may have been behind Britain's biggest political donation has no registered address - meaning it has failed to fulfil a key legal requirement - the BBC has found."

But apparently, that's not at all relevant to the various talking heads or random, uneducated idiots they get to chatter on the BBC.

I would have thought the first issue of the day would be "This illegal activity by the leave campaign, does it invalidate the result of the referendum?"

Apparently my journalistic instincts are way off...



EDIT:

David Mitchell and Robert Webb demonstrate the current state of UK news reporting:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQnd5ilKx2Y
 
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