Cont: Brexit: Now What? Part 5

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Pixel42 said:
So you're saying that Leave voters are stupid?
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Without putting words in Ceptimus's mouth I think his view is that the remain votors trusting the experts who unanimously predicted that the UK economy would suffer post brexit are stupid.
The leave votors trusting the predictions of utopia by unqualified fantasists and racist agitators were sensible.
 
Belz... said:
Apologies. I'm looking at the long-term effects because every decision of this magnitude has an adaptation period, and this one will have effects for quite a while. I think it's fair to say that we should look at the long term to see if the decision turns out to be good or not.
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I don't.
I think (funnily enough) that any decision like this that is happy to throw 3 generations onto the scrap heap in the vagiue hope that in 50 years time (I mean, come on, what economic forecasting can get to 50 years??) things will be a bit better than they might have been otherwise is a complete fantasist. Indeed, is dangerous.

This is Cultural Revolution thinking.
 
Belz... said:
Dude, I'm responding to your SPECIFIC point by isolating them and answering them individually.

What the hell's the problem with that? What would you want me to do? Quote your posts in a single block like you just did and ignore those points? That's just not how I do things. If you feel like I've skipped something worth addressing, then say so. I'll try to correct the mistake.
No you are cutting out the deeper explanation and points that follow the part you chop out then acting like it doesn't exist.

Voting. Is. Not. Bullying.
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Never said it was. You seem to be relying on one piece of information about Leave Voters - that they voted to leave - and forgetting (perhaps as I said because you are far away) that we have had 2 years of their contortions since the vote, an extensive campaign prior to the vote in which we had to listen to them and several years of their nastiness prior to it.

You're the one who is overly emotional about this issue, so maybe you should take a step back and realise that you're not being objective here.
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I'm appropriately emotional about the damage that will be done to many by the people who voted to do it because they are either too thick to understand it, too ignorant to learn, too bigoted to empathise or too callous to care.

Yes, heaven forbid that I object to painting millions of people with a single brush that allows you to ignore what they think or want because it disagrees with you.
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I have heard what they think. It's nonsense. You're attempt to come up with a sensible argument on their behalf was incredibly weak and relied on ignoring facts.

And I haven't painted them with a single brush. There is all kinds of deplorable behaviour on their side.

Calm down, Archie. No one's saying that people dying is good. What I'm saying is that major decisions like that, even, say, a healthcare bill, is going to cause deaths no matter what. The question is whether the end result is better or worse, and in my opinion it's not something we'll know for a while. Hell, the American Civil War still has effects now.
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And I've explained that I'm tired of people treating this like a political game - which is exactly what arguing over words is - when it affects real people's lives. If you actually care about people dying perhaps engage on that topic and how it can be prevented rather than continually rattling on about the poor Leave voters being labelled stupid. It's a better word than what they actually are, *****.
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ceptimus said:
Economic forecasts are certainly not "statements of facts." They are notoriously inaccurate - little better than horoscopes. Anyone who bets her future on such "facts" is stupid.
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Luckily no-one said they were. They are however a sight more informative than simply pretending everything will be fine without actually doing the homework which was Leave's approach.

So is this particular argument:

a) stupid
b) dishonest
c) bigoted
d) callous
e) other

Answer: B and D

I'll let you know if I EVER get an E, Belz. I really will.
 
Tolls said:
I don't.
I think (funnily enough) that any decision like this that is happy to throw 3 generations onto the scrap heap in the vagiue hope that in 50 years time (I mean, come on, what economic forecasting can get to 50 years??) things will be a bit better than they might have been otherwise is a complete fantasist. Indeed, is dangerous.

This is Cultural Revolution thinking.
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Thank You!

I thought it was only me that thought 'It might be better long after we are all dead, now pass that turnip, you've had your bite for the week' is probably not a great way to argue for something.

But I don't think that's Belz point. His point simply seems to be that while we are eating the turnip we shouldn't blame the people who voted for it or think ill of them. They just had a different idea based on prejudice and fantasy which, in its own way, needs to be respected just as much as anything based on evidence, expert opinion or fact.
 
Lothian said:
Seems every chancellor of the Exchequer we have ever had is stupid. I wonder what alternative you suggest chancellors resort to when setting budgets. I guess the reading of chlorine washed chicken bones.

Still some good news. Migration Watch today predict that post brexit migration will increase albeit the immigrants will come from the 3rd world rather than Europe. That will please the racist leavers.
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A return to good old fashioned British values, colour coded immigrants!
 
GnaGnaMan said:
What about them? Months before the referendum, one would have expected that the UK-wide result to look something like this. What's there to explain?

People who felt that they were english and not british went for leave with almost 80%. That's astonishing.
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Not really, not least because the graphic doesn't show how many people actually defined themselves as "English not British." English people who totally reject Britishness are a small minority, and would be viewed with suspicion by the majority.
 
Belz... said:
No but the answer is in the question, isn't it? If you can show that Leave voters are less informed, then what you call them is less informed or misinformed, not stupid.
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There's bound to be a significant overlap, though. Stupid people are more likely to fall for disinformation and misinformation, or to wrongly interpret true information.
 
On Radio4 the PM talking about her post Brexit plans for immigration proclaimed "the end of the free movement of people" as if it was a triumph for democracy.
(Exemptions for cheap labour for farmers and construction companies)
 
Information Analyst said:
Not true. If more Scottish Leave voters had gone the other way, they could have swung the overall result, even if England, Wales, and NI had stayed exactly the same.
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Even so, having been sold staying in the UK as the best way of remaining in the EU during the independence referendum, Scotland was then dragged kicking and screaming out of the EU by the Brexit vote, despite opting for Remain by a substantial margin. You can't blame the bagpipe botherers for being pissed off.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
Sorry I'm not really following. What was the question and what's this chart showing me in relation to it?
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I wanted to emphasize that it is particularly english ethnic identity that is associated with the leave vote. It's not people who live in england.
There must be some sort of ideological package in the air that combines englishness and anti-eu sentiment.
I didn't mean to imply that this wasn't being addressed.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
On Radio4 the PM talking about her post Brexit plans for immigration proclaimed "the end of the free movement of people" as if it was a triumph for democracy.
(Exemptions for cheap labour for farmers and construction companies)
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It's just polite code for "less foreigners" to appeal to the Tory rank and file, even if it actually makes no difference. Given that so many Leavers seem to have been swayed by how they perceive things, rather than how they actually are, they may actually end up believing their are "less foreigners," simply because there is no longer EU freedom of movement.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
But I don't think that's Belz point. His point simply seems to be that while we are eating the turnip we shouldn't blame the people who voted for it or think ill of them. They just had a different idea based on prejudice and fantasy which, in its own way, needs to be respected just as much as anything based on evidence, expert opinion or fact.
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I think Belz... has a point. When you place blame you are not looking for a solution.

If you say that it is people's own fault for being misinformed then you implicitly accept that the information system (ie the British media) is fine. Is it?

If you say that leave voters are racists then you imply that it really is the wish of a majority to end freedom of movement, regardless of economic consequences. If that had been the explicit ballot question, would that really have gotten a majority? Theresa May acts like it. IF leave voters are racists then she is right; or is a radical minoriy taking Britain for a ride?
 
ceptimus said:
Ha!

We were against the changes in the Lisbon treaty proposal - as were France, Denmark, and Ireland. Some of the changes involved removing the requirement for unanimity when voting (a.k.a. veto) and replacing it with qualified majority and double majority voting for most votes.
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Do you have a source for this?
If they agree to something they are against, they can't have been much against it; or really against it, at all.

The EU then removed these contentious clauses from the treaty and slipped them in anyway by the back door of amending existing treaties.
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How can a treaty that the UK is party to, be changed without consent from the UK. How can that be done without ratification by the UK parliament?
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
No you are cutting out the deeper explanation and points that follow the part you chop out then acting like it doesn't exist.
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Could you give me an example of such a "deeper" explanation? Because to my eye I've addressed every important point you've made.

Never said it was. You seem to be relying on one piece of information about Leave Voters - that they voted to leave - and forgetting (perhaps as I said because you are far away) that we have had 2 years of their contortions since the vote, an extensive campaign prior to the vote in which we had to listen to them and several years of their nastiness prior to it.
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What does that have to do with bullying?

I'm appropriately emotional about the damage that will be done to many by the people who voted to do it because they are either too thick to understand it, too ignorant to learn, too bigoted to empathise or too callous to care.
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It's fine to be emotional. But if you're going to have a discussion online with someone and try to convince them that you're right, perhaps leaving that emotion aside is a better strategy, no?

You're attempt to come up with a sensible argument on their behalf was incredibly weak and relied on ignoring facts.
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No, it was an attempt to show that you can make a reasonable but ignorant decision. Which is still true. And I maintain what I said: if you are opposed to the "ever closer" union, or if you want a tigher immigration control, or if you dislike the democratic structures of the EU or whatever else, it may be entirely reasonable to want to leave, and you may be willing to pay the heavy price we talked about earlier. And that's even before we look at whether we agree with you on those.

And I've explained that I'm tired of people treating this like a political game - which is exactly what arguing over words is - when it affects real people's lives.
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Uh-huh, and what exactly do you think I can do about Brexit? The only thing I can do about it is to discuss it. So although I wouldn't call it a game, it's entirely academic.

If you actually care about people dying perhaps engage on that topic and how it can be prevented rather than continually rattling on about the poor Leave voters being labelled stupid.
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Again, what exactly do you expect this discussion to achieve? Do you think you or me are going to overturn Brexit? I ask because, if my online discussions are going to have a geopolitical impact, I'm actually going to focus on the really important problem: climate change. Compared to that, nothing matters, so why then are we even talking about anything else?

Come on man, this is just a discussion. We're not planning the next World Order, although just saying that now makes me wish we were.
 
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