Cont: Brexit: Now What? Part 5

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ponderingturtle said:
… The second one is exactly about not calling people out on racism.
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It's about what were the consequences of doing so.

As for the Poles being white? Come on they were always the untermensch.
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In some places, sure, but not in Britain where at least older generations associate them with their contribution to the Battle of Britain. Britain has no uncomfortable history of using 'Polish' to mean 'stupid' in racist jokes; here it was 'Irish'. Perhaps tellingly "untermensch" isn't an English word.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
It's about what were the consequences of doing so.


In some places, sure, but not in Britain where at least older generations associate them with their contribution to the Battle of Britain. Britain has no uncomfortable history of using 'Polish' to mean 'stupid' in racist jokes; here it was 'Irish'. Perhaps tellingly "untermensch" isn't an English word.
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And that was all well and good when they were properly in their own country, but that doesn't mean that the hatred of them is not properly classified as racism.

You just can't call people on it because that is truly the worst far worse than the racists.
 
ponderingturtle said:
And that was all well and good when they were properly in their own country, but that doesn't mean that the hatred of them is not properly classified as racism.

You just can't call people on it because that is truly the worst far worse than the racists.
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Yes. I surrender. You saw through my scheme. I was definitely trying to persuade people never to call out racism when they see it because I definitely think that's much worse than stuff like actual racism. And I'd have gotten away with it if it wasn't for you pesky kids. Good job.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
Yes. I surrender. You saw through my scheme. I was definitely trying to persuade people never to call out racism when they see it because I definitely think that's much worse than stuff like actual racism. And I'd have gotten away with it if it wasn't for you pesky kids. Good job.
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You don't want people to call out racists because it is inconvenient to you. You are all "well of course they are being racist, but if you call them out on that they will just shut down and ignore you" of course if you don't call them out on it you are endorsing their behavior.
 
ponderingturtle said:
You don't want people to call out racists because it is inconvenient to you.
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Exactly. I was being inconvenienced by people calling out racists. <pulls off swamp monster mask revealing the old caretaker> So I thought if I could persuade them to stop, I could carry on searching the old funfair for the hidden pirate treasure uninterrupted.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
The difference is I'm not defending bigotry or advising anyone not to call it out. Just pointing out it sucks when it turns out the bigots are in the majority.
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I don't believe that the majority of people are inherently bigoted however their problems have been addressed in racist terms, as immigrants coming here using their services.

This is not the real problem. The real problem is that we are creating too many jobs in places where we don't have the local labour force to fill the positions.

The people of Boston Lincs hate the fact the area has increased in population and it is harder to see a doctor, get kids into school etc. That is caused by the need for thousands of seasonal workers in the area. It doesn't matter where the workers come from. Adding that number of people to an areas will stretch resources. In fact it would stretch it more if people came from the UK as they are more likely to remain permanently in the area and are more likely to bring their families with them.

As we are now seeing with the workforce shortages in areas such as health since the vote, immigrants come here to work not to steal benefits. Immigrants contribute more in tax than they take out in benefits.

The real problem is that we have been too successful and created too many jobs we have attracted lots of people who have come here and paid in money to UK PLC. That money has not been spent on the infrastruture required to support the extra population.

I don't expect the Tories to do anything other than blame foreigners rather than themselves. Labour I hoped would be better.

'Bigots' blame foreigners because they don't understand the real causes of their issues. Educate them and any bigotry will fade.
 
The chances of a second Brexit referendum just got higher

CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/25/uk/brexit-labour-conference-second-referendum-intl/index.html

Britain's opposition Labour party was voting Tuesday on a policy that would put a new public vote on the table if Prime Minister Theresa May failed to get an eventual Brexit deal through the UK Parliament.

And Labour's Brexit spokesman, Keir Starmer, received rapturous applause at his party's annual conference when he raised the prospect that staying in the European Union would be on the ballot paper.
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I sort of figured this was how they were gonna try to get out of it. The main problem, other than just well everything, with the first Brexit vote was that both sides agreed that the vote wouldn't actually have any power. It was essentially a glorified opinion poll but not presented to the public as such which is why nobody really seem to know what to do when the Pro-Brexit side both won and sorta expected things to then happen.

So a "Brexit Vote But This Time We Mean It" referendum was inevitable.
 
I'm a bit more cynical than that. There seem to be rather more senior Labour figures against the idea of having Remain on any future ballot. Not ruling it out completely, of course. All things to all people. No sense in nailing your colours to the mast on divisive policies you're unlikely to have to deliver on.
 
I'm an outsider looking in at this whole thing so it's probably impossible for me to not put my own governmental and cultural baggage on it but this whole thing from day 1 has just read to me as a:

- A major political party courted a growing number of niche voters by promising them a chance to vote on their big issue, sort of just expecting the vote to never happen and/or not pass.

- Nobody really expected the Brexit vote to come back positive so nobody really on any side had any plan for what to do if it did. Even the Pro-Brexit people themselves are still running on "Wow we didn't really think that would work" fumes to a large degree.

- Now pretty much everybody (including a lot I wager of the ostensibly Pro-Brexit people) is trying to find a way to get out of this without looking like they are getting out of it.

- This puts them in a weird position because anything they do is either going to be economic ruin for the UK, the literal end of the UK, or is going to seem like (or even arguably is) them over-riding "The Will of the People."
 
Pretty much, except that it happened to be the ruling party, trying to claw back their own voters who abandoned them over a single issue and, most strangely of all to me, the Leave vote seems to be quite resilient in opinion polls despite almost everyone thinking either that the whole thing is a shambles or at least that they'll not get whichever kind of Brexit they want.

Leave voters seem either to disbelieve all the predictions of economic damage or find the EU so toxic they think the pain will be worth it.
 
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Belz... said:
Would that even save the situation? Would the EU even consider reversing the process and just going on as if nothing happened?
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I think they would because going through with Brexit would be far from painless for the EU.
 
Belz... said:
Would that even save the situation? Would the EU even consider reversing the process and just going on as if nothing happened?
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Yes. There's a pretty good chance the other 27 would agree to let the UK withdraw Article 50 and return to the status quo.

More likely than the UK trying to do so, anyway.
 
I hope you guys are correct. Regardless of whether I think there are some reasons for leaving the EU, it seems far more damaging than just staying and helping to improve the Union.
 
Belz... said:
Would that even save the situation? Would the EU even consider reversing the process and just going on as if nothing happened?
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The question is being asked currently by a Scottish contingent on whether it is legally allowable for the UK simply to withdraw its resignation or whether it has to go to the EU27 to vote on whether to allow it.

Given that nobody has ever been stupid enough to leave the EU it all seems to be a bit up for grabs legally.
 
Lothian said:
'Bigots' blame foreigners because they don't understand the real causes of their issues. Educate them and any bigotry will fade.
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How is that going to make them feel safe around all those people speaking foreign? The problem originally cited was

"People voted to leave because the level of immigration was too high for too long and there's a threshold above which people get the gut feeling that their high street doesn't feel like home any more and they don't like it."
 
ponderingturtle said:
How is that going to make them feel safe around all those people speaking foreign? The problem originally cited was

"People voted to leave because the level of immigration was too high for too long and there's a threshold above which people get the gut feeling that their high street doesn't feel like home any more and they don't like it."
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Quote doesn't mention "feel safe". It's about apparent composition of their neighborhood, not safety.
 
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