Cont: Brexit: Now What? Part 5

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When is a tax not a tax? If whenever you pay VAT, a proportion of what you pay goes to the EU, why wouldn't you call it a tax?

For USA readers who are not familiar with VAT, from a normal consumer's perspective it's a sales tax that is applied to pretty much everything, excepting most food you buy to prepare at home, insurance, education, books, and children's clothes.

Typically, an EU member country will have a VAT rate around 20%, and a proportion of the tax collected goes to the EU.
 
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Aber said:
There is an effective EU VAT rate of 0.3%.
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1)As the Goal pointed out, that is not an actual tax. One calculates a kind of standard VAT and the EU receives a fraction of that. But not every country collects that amount of VAT, so that it's not a share of the actually collected tax. It's a sum of money calculated on the basis of a hypothetical tax.

2)More importantly, the purse strings are firmly in the hands of the national governments. The member states have to agree to pay the money. What the UK is currently paying, is paid because the UK parliament agreed to it.
 
ceptimus said:
When is a tax not a tax? If whenever you pay VAT, a proportion of what you pay goes to the EU, why wouldn't you call it a tax?

For USA readers who are not familiar with VAT, from a normal consumer's perspective it's a sales tax that is applied to pretty much everything, excepting most food you buy to prepare at home, insurance, education, books, and children's clothes.

Typically, an EU member country will have a VAT rate around 20%, and a proportion of the tax collected goes to the EU.
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VAT is a tax but its not a tax levied by the EU on EU citizens. You might as well say the contributions from each member are income tax.

VAT is paid to HMRC not the EU it is a UK tax.
 
VAT is a tax that the EU FORCES member countries to apply. The UK, so long as it is an EU member, could not decide to abolish VAT and replace it with some other tax.

So the EU forces member countries to apply VAT, and it sets the rules on which goods can be VAT exempt or zero rated, and then a portion of the money collected has to go to the EU.

But if you wish to maintain the fiction that this doesn't constitute an EU tax that's fine with me. Some people choose to believe in gods so why shouldn't some people choose to believe that EU VAT isn't an EU tax.
 
Oh noes, the horrible EU FORCES member states to do something. My gosh. If only the poor defenseless member states would have had some power in preventing that from happening.

Ceptimus, EVERY EU rule has been agreed to by the member states. Including the UK.

But hey, that horrible 0.3% gone will go into the NHS fund, together with all the money of the new, far more profitable trade deals the UK will get when they leave the EU, because of course each member state of the EU would love to give the UK trade deals that are skewed in the UK's favour.
In the same way that each member state will agree to whatever other one-sided demand the UK wants, the Empire is after all powerful enough to force that trough.

And hey, all the members of the party that won the referendum to enable this glorious new golden age, like Nigel Farage, have been working tirelessly to make this happen according to their well thought out and clear plans.
 
ceptimus said:
VAT is a tax that the EU FORCES member countries to apply. The UK, so long as it is an EU member, could not decide to abolish VAT and replace it with some other tax.

So the EU forces member countries to apply VAT, and it sets the rules on which goods can be VAT exempt or zero rated, and then a portion of the money collected has to go to the EU.

But if you wish to maintain the fiction that this doesn't constitute an EU tax that's fine with me. Some people choose to believe in gods so why shouldn't some people choose to believe that EU VAT isn't an EU tax.
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Once again, the EU does not receive a share of collected VAT. A small part of the contribution of the EU member states is calculated as a share of a hypothetical VAT.
The funding of the EU is renegotiated every few years and needs to be signed off and ratified by each, single member state. It is not something the EU can force on member states.
 
So you admit that it's impossible for a country to be an EU member unless that country imposes VAT, and that it's impossible for a country to make its own laws about what products are subject to VAT, and a country must agree to EU laws about the minimum rates of VAT, and a country must supply the EU with VAT records so that the EU can work out how much it's owed from the VAT collected.

But it's all an entirely voluntary thing, and in no way constitutes the EU forcing member countries to collect taxes to fund the EU. :)

Lest you misunderstand, I don't mind the EU taxing EU citizens in this way - the EU has to be funded somehow. I'm just amused and amazed at the mental gymnastics you perform in the effort to convince yourself that the EU doesn't tax its citizens.
 
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ceptimus said:
So you admit that it's impossible for a country to be an EU member unless that country imposes VAT, and that it's impossible for a country to make its own laws about what products are subject to VAT, and a country must agree to EU laws about the minimum rates of VAT, and a country must supply the EU with VAT records so that the EU can work out how much it's owed from the VAT collected.
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I have no idea how you come to this conclusion.
 
Isn't it strange that a multinational community that joins economies in a common market must have rules, structures, and a budget. What, no fairy government in line with a deranged and utopian freedom gospel? Guess not.
 
A percentage of the gambling industries profits go to GambleAware. That is not a tax on Gamblers. Neither is the EU VAT contribution a tax on consumers.
The UK adopted VAT in 73. The EU directive harmonising VAT came in 2006. I suspect every EU country had VAT way before then. To say the EU insists on VAT is like saying the EU insists on a public transport system.
Ceptimus is correct in that the EU sets a minimum VAT rate. Ours is 0%, The bastards won't let us go any lower.
 
ceptimus said:
Thanks. Of course it's EU citizens that have the right of free movement within the EU. Generally, if a visitor from outside the EU is already legally inside an EU country, then they'll be able to travel freely to other EU countries - though the rules about not being able to permanently live, work, or stay within the EU for more than a limited time will still apply to them.

The point remains that an EU country has no legal way of preventing any healthy, non-criminal, EU citizen from another EU country from moving into their country to live and work for an indefinite period - perhaps for their whole lifetime.
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And every other EU country accepts that, or or at least the huge benefits dwarf the negatives. Except the UK. What's so special/different about us?
 
Labour leadership now saying they are open to supporting a new referendum.
It is going to be moved at the party conference this week.
Even Corbyn says if it is the will of the members he will go with it but he is pushing for a general election.
 
Aber said:
Not really surprising, there are 4,000+ in UK jails.
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If there are 4,000 EU national is prison, they didn't all get put there or are released in a single year. Convicted criminals will only comprise a minority of the 5,000 deportations.

ETA: Incidentally, on the cited data, EU nationals comprise 4.35% of the E&W prison population, and 4.36% of the E&W population as a whole. This contrasts with Brits being 89.9% of prisoners, but 86.62% of the population, whilst all other countries account for 5.71% and 9.03% respectively. In other words, non-UK nationals are less likely to be in prison than UK nationals.
 
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Lothian said:
A percentage of the gambling industries profits go to GambleAware. That is not a tax on Gamblers. Neither is the EU VAT contribution a tax on consumers.
The UK adopted VAT in 73. The EU directive harmonising VAT came in 2006. I suspect every EU country had VAT way before then. To say the EU insists on VAT is like saying the EU insists on a public transport system.
Ceptimus is correct in that the EU sets a minimum VAT rate. Ours is 0%, The bastards won't let us go any lower.
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This just confuses the issue further. So let me clear this up. There are two separate issues here: EU funding and EU VAT.

VAT affects the price of goods. When you have free movement of goods that is an issue. Harmonization of VAT across Europe started way back in the 70ies. The 2006 directive is just the latest incarnation.
This has nothing to do with funding and is all about the single market.
 
Information Analyst said:
And every other EU country accepts that, or or at least the huge benefits dwarf the negatives. Except the UK. What's so special/different about us?
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Let's not forget last week's government report which showed that immigrants in the UK pay less tax per head than UK born citizens, cost the NHS more than then they contribute, lower standards in education and cause house prices to increase.....*


*I'm trying to adjust to the new opposite land of Brexit.
 
ceptimus said:
VAT is a tax that the EU FORCES member countries to apply. The UK, so long as it is an EU member, could not decide to abolish VAT and replace it with some other tax.
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The UK had VAT long before it was in the EU and will continue to do so long after it leaves if it ever manages to do so.

So the EU forces member countries to apply VAT, and it sets the rules on which goods can be VAT exempt or zero rated, and then a portion of the money collected has to go to the EU.
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Nope. EU members agree what if any EU wide rules apply on VAT and then apply them. Nobody was forced to do anything.

But if you wish to maintain the fiction that this doesn't constitute an EU tax that's fine with me. Some people choose to believe in gods so why shouldn't some people choose to believe that EU VAT isn't an EU tax.
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It isn't an EU tax on EU citizens. Try not paying VAT and see who objects. It will be Hector not Pierre or Hans who come knocking. Of course some people are so rabidly anti-EU that they simply pretend things are different. Thus they insist against all evidence that the UK can't control entry to the UK or that the EU has taxes that it levies on EU citizens.
 
GnaGnaMan said:
This just confuses the issue further. So let me clear this up. There are two separate issues here: EU funding and EU VAT.

VAT affects the price of goods. When you have free movement of goods that is an issue. Harmonization of VAT across Europe started way back in the 70ies. The 2006 directive is just the latest incarnation.
This has nothing to do with funding and is all about the single market.
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The original point was that the European Commission and European Parliament need to revisit their powers because the EU is imposing taxes on its citizens and thus citizens need more and stronger direct representation.

But this isn't the case. The EU VAT thing is about both how the member states fund the EU (hence the 0.3% thing). There is also as you say a question about how regulatory environments are harmonised across the continent.

Both of these issues are best dealt with by member state governments and hence do not need a greater element of 'democracy'. They are about how the club works.
 
Tweet from Frankie Boyle that seems to have some merit.

@frankieboyle

Because of the Empire, we developed an elite class addicted to enormous returns on investment , only possible through constant growth. As this becomes impossible, Brexit happens so profits can be delivered through cannibalising previously protected resources, including people.
 
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