Cont: Brexit: Now What? Part 5

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Are your General Elections non-binding too?

Not just to be pedantic but yes they are not binding; a party doesn't have to keep to their manifesto, a MP can resign from a party and not face reelection, who is put forward as PM is entirely up to a party, usually the leader of the party but doesn't have to be, who is PM can be changed whenever and so on.

The idea that a referendum that didn't give us any details on any particular deal is the be-all and end-all of leaving the EU is totally at odds with the traditions of UK democracy.
 
Unsettling isn't it ?

The proposal that a sector that comprises 80% of the UK economy, and which has a large trade surplus with the EU, and which is highly mobile is excluded from the proposed customs cooperation is basically a green-flag for Dublin, Paris and Frankfurt to come and help themselves to nice slices of the City, EU-facing service companies (like the IT and aerospace sectors) to relocate and wave goodbye to pan-European outsourcing deals. :(
I think Amsterdam wants a slice of the pie too. :p

Reading through that proposal, it looks much like a Norway-style deal but then with services instead of agriculture excluded.
 
*rant on*


Maybe it's high time our countries' leaders grew a pair, stepped up to the plate, and called Trump on his bluff.

Maybe it's time for the rest of the world to start weaning ourselves off of the US consumer market and prioritize trade with each other instead.

Maybe it's time to grant Trump and his cheerleaders their wish and let the US become completely 100% isolationist.

According to Cult 45, they don't need (nor want, nor like) the rest of us anyways. According to Cult 45 we're all just a bunch of useless deadbeats doing nothing but feeding off of the US teet.

So...

Let's grant them their wish... and walk away.

Enough is enough.


*rant off*



(Apologies to all the sane and decent Americans still left out there stuck in the middle of this nightmare)

Isn't that one of the things the EU was about? Promoting internal trade and making a common bloc against other economic superpowers? The EU can much more effectively take a stand and, if needed, retaliate against Trump's isolationist measures than that individual countries like Poland, Italy, France, Germany, or, oops, the UK can.

As to "wean off", I don't know how lasting these Trump-measures are. I don't have the impression that many other US politicians are so enthusiastic about it.
 
I think Amsterdam wants a slice of the pie too. :p

Reading through that proposal, it looks much like a Norway-style deal but then with services instead of agriculture excluded.

...and freedom of movement excluded

...and primacy of the ECJ

...and gradual divergence on standards

...and no financial contribution

The EU are almost bound to say no - which is IMO what Theresa May wants so she can throw up her hands, say that the EU made any kind of compromise impossible and so we are compelled by the EU to have a diamond-hard Brexit. :mad:
 
Isn't that one of the things the EU was about? Promoting internal trade and making a common bloc against other economic superpowers? The EU can much more effectively take a stand and, if needed, retaliate against Trump's isolationist measures than that individual countries like Poland, Italy, France, Germany, or, oops, the UK can.

Yes, the original idea behind forming the EU was that of "stronger together".

But the problem is that it's now become nothing but a bureaucratic nightmare with the suits in Brussels dictating terms to the other member countries. Thus tying the hands of sovereign nations being able to make decisions on an individual basis, based on each country's individual needs.

Nothing wrong with economic and military alliances, in fact they are a necessity in today's global world... but only so long as each member still has the ability to move freely around the board without unwanted hinderances coming from a small group of self-serving prats in some boardroom.

Multi-lateral trade agreements can be made and military alliances can be made (such as NATO) without dictating, strong-arming, and using bulldog tactics. Alliances are a necessity... Brussels is not.

As to "wean off", I don't know how lasting these Trump-measures are. I don't have the impression that many other US politicians are so enthusiastic about it.
As long as US republicans continue to sit on their hands giving Trump free reign to leave a trail of destruction everywhere he goes, the rest of the world has no choice but to take action while US politicians continue to be negligent in the jobs they were elected to do.

We can't control the US government (and its lackthereof), we can only control our own actions, choices, and decisions.
 
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Yes, the original idea behind forming the EU was that of "stronger together".

But the problem is that it's now become nothing but a bureaucratic nightmare with the suits in Brussels dictating terms to the other member countries. Thus tying the hands of sovereign nations being able to make decisions on an individual basis, based on each country's individual needs.

:confused:

I think you've grossly misrepresented the process by which EU legislation comes about and the extent to which it must be approved by the countries themselves.

Time and again people bemoan the unacceptable levels of Brussels red tape and yet when asked to provide actual examples, the vast majority turn out to be inaccurate portrayals of the requirements and/or little or nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with the national government.

I mean when it turns out that we in the UK could have had blue passports all along if we had chosen so to do, it calls into question the extent to which we are "ruled" by Brussels.
 
The EU are almost bound to say no - which is IMO what Theresa May wants so she can throw up her hands, say that the EU made any kind of compromise impossible and so we are compelled by the EU to have a diamond-hard Brexit. :mad:

Given she was a Remainer, surely Plan B is an EEA deal, not Hard Brexit?
 
:confused:

I think you've grossly misrepresented the process by which EU legislation comes about and the extent to which it must be approved by the countries themselves.

Time and again people bemoan the unacceptable levels of Brussels red tape and yet when asked to provide actual examples, the vast majority turn out to be inaccurate portrayals of the requirements and/or little or nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with the national government.

I mean when it turns out that we in the UK could have had blue passports all along if we had chosen so to do, it calls into question the extent to which we are "ruled" by Brussels.

No need to dig out a bunch of examples to make my point.

The fact that Brussels is making it so difficult for the UK to exit and placing a bunch of ridiculous demands in order for them to do so.... speaks for itself and makes my case in point for me.

So I'll have to respectfully disagree with your post.
 
No need to dig out a bunch of examples to make my point.

The fact that Brussels is making it so difficult for the UK to exit and placing a bunch of ridiculous demands in order for them to do so.... speaks for itself and makes my case in point for me.

So I'll have to respectfully disagree with your post.

Regarding the highlighted, it seems that the difficulty seems to be from the UK side. Until yesterday there wasn't even an idea of what we wanted - and then it turned out to be mutually incompatible. :confused:

Which ridiculous demands are you referring to, as a prerequisite for the UK leaving the EU ?
 
Given she was a Remainer, surely Plan B is an EEA deal, not Hard Brexit?

She declared herself on the side of remain, that's true, but given her declarations regarding the EU both before and after the Brexit referendum that could have been a tactical decision in order to retain her position within the party rather than a matter of conviction.

Since the vote, she has been enthusiastically pro-Brexit (though as has been pointed out to me repeatedly, more likely pro-Theresa May as PM than anything else). Given her "red lines" (departure from ECHR is a personal one as far as I can tell) the only possible Plan B is a no deal Brexit IMO.
 
No need to dig out a bunch of examples to make my point.

The fact that Brussels is making it so difficult for the UK to exit and placing a bunch of ridiculous demands in order for them to do so.... speaks for itself and makes my case in point for me.

So I'll have to respectfully disagree with your post.

Uhm... it's not the exiting the EU that is being made difficult. Once the UK invoked article 50 the exit date was set and you will be exiting.

And truth be told... the EU hasn't really had a change to make things difficult for the UK. Thus far it has been the inability of the UK to reach an agreement among itself that has been causing you problems.
 
Yes, the original idea behind forming the EU was that of "stronger together".

But the problem is that it's now become nothing but a bureaucratic nightmare with the suits in Brussels dictating terms to the other member countries.


Have you been reading the Daily Mail?

Don't do it, it's not good for your brain and they lie. Like, a lot.
 
No need to dig out a bunch of examples to make my point.

The fact that Brussels is making it so difficult for the UK to exit and placing a bunch of ridiculous demands in order for them to do so.... speaks for itself and makes my case in point for me.


Guess the nationality of the person that wrote Article 50.

Go on, I bet you can't...
 
Given she was a Remainer, surely Plan B is an EEA deal, not Hard Brexit?
May was a PMer, her position on Brexit was calculated to leave her in the best political position regardless the outcome. Her goal with Brexit is to remain PM.
 
...and freedom of movement excluded

...and primacy of the ECJ

...and gradual divergence on standards

...and no financial contribution

The EU are almost bound to say no - which is IMO what Theresa May wants so she can throw up her hands, say that the EU made any kind of compromise impossible and so we are compelled by the EU to have a diamond-hard Brexit. :mad:
For convenience, the link to the BBC article again.

As to primacy of the ECJ, it says this:
The suggestion of a common rulebook sounds very collaborative, but it does - in effect - mean the UK agreeing to take on the EU's rules and regulations in all these areas.

If the UK parliament chose not to sign up to any of those rules, the idea of frictionless trade would begin to fall apart. The other big sensitivity in this section will be the role of the European Court of Justice (ECJ).
Given the first paragraph, when there's a dispute within the EU about the rules, the ECJ decides and that becomes the law of the land. The UK just as to follow suit. So through the backdoor, there's still de-facto primacy of the ECJ, at least in trade.

Similarly, as the EU has more weight to throw around, it would effectively be able to bully the UK into compliance with EU rules. And else, "no trade for you!"

As to financial contribution:
The White Paper accepts that the UK would not have any voting rights in the way the agencies go about their business, and that it would have to make appropriate financial contributions to them.
That would be similar to Norway.

The freedom of movement sounds indeed more restrictive than Norway has (which has effectively EU FoM), but also vague.

The whole package still sounds like there are holes in the proposal. Like the above contradictions about the ECJ. If Barnier is smart (and I think he is), he just asks for clarification on those points, we get another sojourn at Checkers and another round of quitters.
 
No need to dig out a bunch of examples to make my point.

The fact that Brussels is making it so difficult for the UK to exit and placing a bunch of ridiculous demands in order for them to do so.... speaks for itself and makes my case in point for me.

So I'll have to respectfully disagree with your post.
I hate to be repetitive, but the only way that Brussels made it "difficult" was to insist that the UK come up with concrete proposals, something that has cost the UK government now 2 years since the referendum. The other thing that makes it difficult, and that the UK has never really thought through, is its own colonial heritage on that island west over.
 
Yes, the original idea behind forming the EU was that of "stronger together".

But the problem is that it's now become nothing but a bureaucratic nightmare with the suits in Brussels dictating terms to the other member countries. Thus tying the hands of sovereign nations being able to make decisions on an individual basis, based on each country's individual needs.

Nothing wrong with economic and military alliances, in fact they are a necessity in today's global world... but only so long as each member still has the ability to move freely around the board without unwanted hinderances coming from a small group of self-serving prats in some boardroom.
The only thing that the bureaucrats in Brussels can enforce and dictate are rules and laws that have been made by and decided upon, by the Council of Ministers and our elected representatives in the European Parliament.
 
Farage is on the 'Wright Stuff' news show this morning telling us how London is worse for crime than New York and it's all Khans fault.

Complaining he is distracted by his hatred for Trump and hasn't visited a single crime scene for victims family.

Notwithstanding the fact that Khan is often seen out and about, Farage relies on a misunderstanding of the Mayor's role as regards policing. He may control the (reduced c/o the Tories) budget, but his control over operation matters is zero. He could tell Dick, "I want you to do X, Y, and Z," and she is under no obligation to do so.
 
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