Cont: Brexit: Now What? Part 5

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Spanx said:
My ballot paper didn't say (and everything that goes with it)

Vote leave did say....


Technological and economic forces are changing the world fast. EU institutions cannot cope. We have lost control of vital policies. This is damaging. We need a new relationship. What happens if we vote 'leave'?

We should negotiate a new UK-EU deal based on free trade and friendly cooperation. We end the supremacy of EU law. We regain control. We stop sending £350 million every week to Brussels and instead spend it on our priorities, like the NHS and science research.

We regain our seats on international institutions like the World Trade Organisation so we are a more influential force for free trade and international cooperation.

A vote to 'leave' and a better, friendlier relationship with the EU is much safer than giving Brussels more power and money every year.


Is this what you voted for?
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And another sigh.

I voted to leave the European Union. Full stop.
 
Lplus said:
Can you explain why it shouldn't be?
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I'll take that as a no. You can't articulate why the country level is the most appropriate.

The UK has existed as a political entity for a fair amount of time
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311 years to be exact.

and has generally made decisions to the benefit of the constituents.
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This is a joke right? The current government isn't doing that now, even leaving aside Brexit. For a third of its history, the British government was effectively appointed by the land owners and run for their benefit.

Personally, I have confidence in the UK as the most appropriate level of government for the UK,
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I already know that. I asked why you believe that to be the case. As a supplementary question I'd like to know why you think it wasn't being run at that level before Brexit.

whilst I have little confidence that decisions made at a continental level by whatever EU majority concensus exists at the time will be to the benefit of the UK, and may well be to the disbenefit of the UK.
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Do you realise that, until Brexit, the UK had a say in EU decisions and could veto quite a lot of them if they were perceived to be detrimental to the UK?

People travelled and worked in Europe before the EU. True, you had to ask first, so yes it's likely to be more onerous, but not impossible.
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It's not just the travel though. There are many opportunities that are now closed to us, for example, we are practically shut out of European science.

The mainland European countries weren't our enemies then, they aren't now and won't be after Brexit.
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Do you really expect them to treat us well now? We've tried to sabotage the European dream.

I expect to find an equivalent protections enacted by the UK.
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Why are we ditching all of these constraints and going through all this chaos just to enact the same constraints?

Ever closer union within the EU would inevitably eventually involve losing that ability, and that is what I call loss of sovereignty.
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How would it actually affect you? Give me some concrete examples of how you personally have been negatively impacted by the EU.
 
If you voted remain you also didn't know what you were voting for. No one can predict the future. Granted, leaving is more of a change in the short term than remaining.

Remainers are trying to blame leavers for not being able to predict the future, Remainers simultaneously attempt to block whatever future the leavers attempt to plan, and talk down those plans.

Remainers need to wait and see what the outcome of Brexit actually is. It probably won't be as bad as they currently fear. Remember that for all those committed to blocking or watering down Brexit, their best (only?) tactic is to try and paint the outcome of Brexit in as bad a light as possible. Remember that these are only predictions of what might happen unless things change. All their previous predictions have proved wrong.

Remain confidently asserted that by now (not after Brexit but now) we would have a recession, increased unemployment, falling house prices, probably other bad things I've forgotten at the moment - and all these predictions are the reverse of what has happened.

Remain supporters on here use weasel words to claim that the predictions never actually meant anything - but the people making the predictions never said that at the time. They asserted their predictions almost as if they were proven fact. Remember their woeful predictive record when assessing their current predictions. No doubt when they turn out to be wrong the remain apologists will try to argue that, "they only said that these things would happen if X didn't happen - and of course X has happened." If that were really the case they should be telling us now what forms X might take and taking action to ensure that it does happen.
 
The Shank said:
The question on the voting form could not have been clearer

'Leave the European Union' (and everything that goes with it)
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Be honest: when you voted leave did you understand "everything that goes with it" to include food shortages and the M20 being turned into a car park? Or Britain being excluded from European science or your driving licence not being valid in France?
 
jeremyp said:
Be honest: when you voted leave did you understand "everything that goes with it" to include food shortages and the M20 being turned into a car park? Or Britain being excluded from European science or your driving licence not being valid in France?
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I could also reply to this with 'does it matter'.

But have all of these things happened yet?
 
The Shank said:
I could also reply to this with 'does it matter'.

But have all of these things happened yet?
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'If' these things do happen 'if' we leave with no deal. Will it be a case of people saying "I didn't see that coming, why didn't anyone tell us about this problem"?
 
The Shank said:
And another sigh.

I voted to leave the European Union. Full stop.
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That's fine. Meanwhile ceptimus is blaming all false/true predictions and actual outcomes on remainers and the EU. That was, clearly, the point I was making.

He is making irrational points. At some point Brexiteers have to accept that the bad outcomes are down to them. Will you?
 
Spanx said:
'If' these things do happen 'if' we leave with no deal. Will it be a case of people saying "I didn't see that coming, why didn't anyone tell us about this problem"?
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And what 'if' these things don't happen?
 
GlennB said:
That's fine. Meanwhile ceptimus is blaming all false/true predictions and actual outcomes on remainers and the EU. That was, clearly, the point I was making.

He is making irrational points. At some point Brexiteers have to accept that the bad outcomes are down to them. Will you?
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Of course!

Just like voters in every general election accept the bad outcomes of the government of the day is down to them.

Those same voters don't get crap thrown at them every day for the way they voted.
 
The Shank said:
'Leave the European Union' (and everything that goes with it)
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Well no, people were assured that we would either retain our current trading terms with the EU or get better ones. Now maybe you knew better but are you really going to claim everyone who voted leave ignored that promise, or the infamous '£350 million a week'?
 
The Shank said:
I could also reply to this with 'does it matter'.
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Well, if lack of EU staff in the NHS and social care leads to suffering and possible death then, yes, I'd say it matters a lot. You? Do you think it matters?

If lack of EU medicines leads to suffering then ... ditto.
Ditto food shortages, or nuclear fuel shortages. And businesses shafted because they can't operate in the EU.

The Shank said:
But have all of these things happened yet?
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They are beginning to happen fast, and predictably so. When they all happen to the max will you 'fess up and say 'Yeah, my vote enabled that. Sorry mate.'?

Will you happily stand in the 2-hour queue for entry to the EU and say "It was worth it"?

You're coming across as a troll, so far. Try addressing the substance of arguments if you're not.
 
GlennB said:
That's fine. Meanwhile ceptimus is blaming all false/true predictions and actual outcomes on remainers and the EU. That was, clearly, the point I was making.

He is making irrational points. At some point Brexiteers have to accept that the bad outcomes are down to them. Will you?
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Wrong. I'm accusing Remain of making incorrect predictions, and warning people that the predictions they are currently making are also likely to be incorrect.

If we are allowed to leave then I accept that there will be outcomes, some good, some bad. No one yet knows what these will be exactly; right now we only have (probably inaccurate) forecasts. Some of those outcomes will be down to the actions of the EU - but I don't 'blame' the EU for those outcomes. The EU is, of course, entitled to do whatever it thinks is in the best interests of the EU: I wouldn't expect it to do otherwise.
 
Garrison said:
Well no, people were assured that we would either retain our current trading terms with the EU or get better ones. Now maybe you knew better but are you really going to claim everyone who voted leave ignored that promise, or the infamous '£350 million a week'?
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I'm not claiming anything other than I and everyone else who voted leave did so in order to 'Leave the EU'.

Politicians often make assurances before an election. Should every election result be overturned when those assurances don't happen?
 
ceptimus said:
If we are allowed to leave then I accept that there will be outcomes, some good, some bad. No one yet knows what these will be exactly; right now we only have (probably inaccurate) forecasts.
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Bollocks. We already have outcomes, some of which I've listed and you've ignored in favour of "No one yet knows". And some of which are accelerating.

Dear FSM. What world do you live in?
 
Most of the 'bad outcomes' at the moment are due to uncertainty about what will happen. That uncertainty is being stoked by both the EU delaying negotiations, and remain supporters agitating for a rematch because they lost. We'll have to weather the storm until Brexit day, ride out the immediate turmoil and then see how things pan out once the uncertainty has been removed.


Change is hard, but we shouldn't be afraid of it.
 
The Shank said:
And what 'if' these things don't happen?
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That would mean that we have made a deal with the EU. Obviously not the no deal Brexit that some leave voters voted for.

I guess the next step would be to blame remainers?
 
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