Well, you certainly have an easy time solving problems which the pros find intractable. Could that be suggesting that you don't know what you are talking about?
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Archie Gemmill Goal
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Not quite sure what you mean here. the paperwork may be done there but customs inspections happen at the port of entry.
Interesting paper here:
https://www.instituteforgovernment....files/publications/IfG_Brexit_customs_WEB.pdf
What preparation has been done on either side of the borders to get ready for a hard exit in April?
Archie Gemmill Goal
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On the contrary it was a major problem that was addressed by the EU VAT regime that the UK is leaving.
Not to mention that they also use different currencies. The remain supporters would have you believe that the border situation now is simple because [reasons] but will be impossible after Brexit because [other reasons].
Mysteriously, the only real solution they can see for the "problem" is to cancel Brexit and remain: isn't it a coincidence that the "only workable solution" they can see is the one that they wanted all along but, unfortunately for them, lost the referendum vote over?
fagin
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OK, please explain what you think the VAT problem is.
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Which part of the problem was solved by which part of the regime?
Primarily admin was reduced and simplified by standardising processes.
My understanding is that it may also have helped the UK had they stayed inside the VAT regime in terms of being able to differentiate EU origin products from non-EU products and treat them differently.
I'm noting that you haven't really answered any of my questions so if you are better informed than me now is the time to educate me.
If these low-touch processes are workable for Ireland why don't they have them between the EU and Ukraine?
Regardless of whether its 100% inspection or 1% inspection there is still going to be extra workload have preparations been made for this on either side?
Do the suggestions for a low-touch border meet the obligations of the UK and EU in terms of their own internal rules and other parties such as the WTO?
Can they be implemented without an agreement between both parties - which no-deal means?
I'm already hearing from one or two small businesses that I know locally who are simply saying they are going to close their doors rather than deal with customs paperwork and importation issues. How feasible is it going to be for someone to live in Ireland and work in the UK or vice versa post Brexit?
Archie Gemmill Goal
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To get back to your original question:
It may be useful to consider a hypothetical:
What if the UK unbanned incandescent lightbulbs?
Well that would be pretty stupid but yes I guess its possible. Doing stupid things is probably what we can expect from people who voted for Brexit. Probably bring back inefficient vacuum cleaners and other electrical appliances too since they prefer goods that consumer more energy and perform worse.
In this case what would be threat to the Single Market, and how would the EU respond to it?
'Threat to the single market'? Not sure what you mean. I'm not even sure its illegal to bring those bulbs into the EU but let's say it is if that's what you mean. The reaction would no doubt depend on the scale of the issue. Of course this is just one item out of millions so even a tiny reaction will scale up into a big effect.
They would be still banned from sale within the EU, but could be smuggled across borders.
Yes. As is true for any number of items.
Does this need checks on the luggage of every single person crossing the border?
No. But it means some checks of some people's luggage doesn't it? I mean they sometimes check bags for heroin or bombs but not every bag all the time. I imagine it would become part of the new regime of customs checks that would be in place to deal with the fact there is now a border there just as the heroin, bombs and weapons checks.
Does this need checks on every single container crossing the border?
No but it means some checks on some containers and it means paperwork for those containers that needs to be checked. If you count a paperwork check as a check then in fact the answer might be yes.
Someone somewhere is going to have to complete that paperwork and someone somewhere is going to have to check that paperwork then someone at the border is going to have to doublecheck that the paperwork tallies up with the truck and a man with a torch is going to have to sometimes physically check the contents.
Does this need checks on every single container declared to contain lightbulbs crossing the border?
As above
Do those checks actually have to be carried out AT the border?
I believe goods have to be checked at the port of entry yes. This is the way the EU (and I believe pretty much everywhere) works. The same procedures that apply to Ukraine will have to apply to the UK. I don't think there is any way around that.
In reality controls would be intelligence lead, and work backwards from where they were appearing in the market to identify the individuals involved in the smuggling.
I don't fully agree that intelligence led means they don't check stuff coming in. The same intelligence led rules apply to Ukraine but they still have multi-hour waits to get through the border. In any case, lets say that intelligence leads them to believe that there is a major problem with incandescent light bulbs coming through the border with Northern Ireland - do you think they aren't going to take action to tighten up that border and increase checks to cut it down? And do you think they aren't going to proactively do ANYTHING more than they do now to police that border when the UK leaves the EU?
It may be useful to consider a hypothetical:
What if the UK unbanned incandescent lightbulbs?
Well that would be pretty stupid but yes I guess its possible. Doing stupid things is probably what we can expect from people who voted for Brexit. Probably bring back inefficient vacuum cleaners and other electrical appliances too since they prefer goods that consumer more energy and perform worse.
In this case what would be threat to the Single Market, and how would the EU respond to it?
'Threat to the single market'? Not sure what you mean. I'm not even sure its illegal to bring those bulbs into the EU but let's say it is if that's what you mean. The reaction would no doubt depend on the scale of the issue. Of course this is just one item out of millions so even a tiny reaction will scale up into a big effect.
They would be still banned from sale within the EU, but could be smuggled across borders.
Yes. As is true for any number of items.
Does this need checks on the luggage of every single person crossing the border?
No. But it means some checks of some people's luggage doesn't it? I mean they sometimes check bags for heroin or bombs but not every bag all the time. I imagine it would become part of the new regime of customs checks that would be in place to deal with the fact there is now a border there just as the heroin, bombs and weapons checks.
Does this need checks on every single container crossing the border?
No but it means some checks on some containers and it means paperwork for those containers that needs to be checked. If you count a paperwork check as a check then in fact the answer might be yes.
Someone somewhere is going to have to complete that paperwork and someone somewhere is going to have to check that paperwork then someone at the border is going to have to doublecheck that the paperwork tallies up with the truck and a man with a torch is going to have to sometimes physically check the contents.
Does this need checks on every single container declared to contain lightbulbs crossing the border?
As above
Do those checks actually have to be carried out AT the border?
I believe goods have to be checked at the port of entry yes. This is the way the EU (and I believe pretty much everywhere) works. The same procedures that apply to Ukraine will have to apply to the UK. I don't think there is any way around that.
In reality controls would be intelligence lead, and work backwards from where they were appearing in the market to identify the individuals involved in the smuggling.
I don't fully agree that intelligence led means they don't check stuff coming in. The same intelligence led rules apply to Ukraine but they still have multi-hour waits to get through the border. In any case, lets say that intelligence leads them to believe that there is a major problem with incandescent light bulbs coming through the border with Northern Ireland - do you think they aren't going to take action to tighten up that border and increase checks to cut it down? And do you think they aren't going to proactively do ANYTHING more than they do now to police that border when the UK leaves the EU?
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The problem is that the UK is leaving the EU. But that's just my opinion, of course. Maybe it won't.
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Remain supporters would have sensible people [SNIP] believe that the border situation no is simple BECAUSE WE ARE IN THE EU, and will be much more difficult BECAUSE WE ARE ABOUT TO LEAVE THE EU WITHOUT ANY AGREEMENT TO PREVENT THAT. And it's impossible because the people in charge of Brexit are incompetent idiots who don't even understand the question let alone the answer.
It's really not difficult for someone [SNIP] to follow but I understand that would probably still exclude the average Brexiteer.
Of course its not impossible to have a land border with the EU and be outside the EU. Ukraine does this. So we can look to them as an example as how this setup works in practice. Its pretty clear from that though that it is impossible to be outside the EU customs union and have a border that works as if you are inside it.
And if this is not the case then it's up to you or your mates to present a solution that is workable and acceptable. So far we've seen not a one but just more unsupported assertions and nonsense such as your quoted post here.
No there are solutions that can maintain an open border and maintain Brexit. You can stay in the customs union. You could join the EEA. Or you can be treated like the Ukraine.
What you can't do is walk off in a huff with no deal as you suggest is clever and then pretend that the Irish Border doesn't become an issue, because it does.
Furthermore I'd say it undermines the very arguments that Leavers make. If its not really a real Brexit to stay in the customs union or to maintain free movement of people or whatever then it's not really a real Brexit to keep an open border with Ireland and the EU either even if it was possible to achieve.
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Why get rid of them when you can just offer them 'compensation' to stick around?
An excellent Long Read from The Guardian on Nissan's Sunderland operations and the dilemma facing them in the post-referendum/pre-Brexit period: Will Nissan stay once Britain leaves? How one factory explains the Brexit business dilemma
And?
You've claimed there will be a VAT problem, but haven't identified what it is. I'm happy to discuss whatever VAT problem you bring up, but in the absence of one.
The "threat to the Single Market" is the core of the EU objections to most UK proposals, especially Chequers.
However when you start drilling down into what exactly the problem is, it often turns out to be only a potential issue, where there are simple countermeasures, or the effect is real, but very small.
And?
You've claimed there will be a VAT problem, but haven't identified what it is. I'm happy to discuss whatever VAT problem you bring up, but in the absence of one.
I told you. The problem is that the UK is leaving the EU.
You don't see a problem with that and that's really another problem.
You correctly pointed out that there is no VAT problem now, while Ireland and the UK are in the EU.
How it works once the UK is out of the EU is not some obscure bit of techinical knowledge. If you've ever travelled outside of the EU you probably had your nose pushed into it.
catsmate
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I like it. Let's drop the golf club.
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Hmm....I notice you declined to educate me or address any of my questions. That being the case I can only assume you aren't interested in a useful or productive discussion.
I completed a VAT return last week; I had an onsite HMRC VAT inspection earlier this year; both covered trading with EU and non-EU sources.
What is the VAT problem you are so concerned about?
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