Cont: Brexit: Now What? Magic 8 Ball's up

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Nessie said:
You made it clear you think that if what the terrorists may do is part of the final decision, then the terrorists have legitimised their use of violence.

Which is rubbish, since no part of The Troubles was about a customs union and the issue is over border checks, which to Nationalists has significant symbolism and makes a united Ireland less likely.

It is a problem of an unintended consequence of leaving the customs union. Leaving the customs union is not worth reigniting the violence.
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People acting legally are not accountable for the actions of violent criminals. Their decision to use violence is solely on them. As independent actors they have a choice to use violence
 
catsmate said:
There is a reason for the Ignore function.
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Oh, the individual we are talking about has been on my ignore function list for a long long time, but the problem the disruption he can cause spreads beyond his posts and infects the whole thread.
I actually put a lot of the blame on people who seem unable to understand or follow the simple rule:

DON"T FEED THE TROLLS.
 
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I could stick my thumb in your eye if not for the unlawful violence that would ensue.

SEE HOW I'M THE VICTIM IN ALL THIS?!
 
Nessie said:
I suspect if the UK leaves with no deal and no backstop, to preserve the customs union, the EU could act as if Ireland had also left and all goods to and from Ireland from mainland Europe would be subject to checks.
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Very unlikely. This would be an absolute negation of all the European treaties. And I doubt Ireland would accept this.
 
ceptimus said:
You're assuming that politician-invented rules are unchangeable. They're not. The politicians could alter the rules, in principle, to say, "These rules apply everywhere, except in the special case of the Irish border"

I'm sure they'd come up with a much more long-winded inpenetrable way of saying the same thing, but that's the essence of it.
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We shall have to hope than that the UK will come up with a proposal that Johnson can get through parliament. He's had what 3 years now to develop his plans so I'm sure he must have a solution by now....
 
BobTheCoward said:
People acting legally are not accountable for the actions of violent criminals. Their decision to use violence is solely on them. As independent actors they have a choice to use violence
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Even if there was no risk of increased violence, there would be massive opposition to a hard border in Ireland. The problem of increased violence is another layer to a multi-layered problem involving personalities, politics, geography, history and religion.

You are doing what many people do to try and understand the issues, you are vastly over simplifying.
 
Darat said:
We shall have to hope than that the UK will come up with a proposal that Johnson can get through parliament. He's had what 3 years now to develop his plans so I'm sure he must have a solution by now....
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The people claiming it's impossible to find a solution also claim that a solution will easily be found during a withdrawal period, so that the backstop will never be needed.
 
ceptimus said:
The people claiming it's impossible to find a solution also claim that a solution will easily be found during a withdrawal period, so that the backstop will never be needed.
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That is a miserable attempt at rewriting history

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Alternatives to the back stop -

- hard border between NI and Eire
- remove Eire from the customs union
- move the backstop to the English Channel and treat goods from Eire as exempted from tariffs.
 
ceptimus said:
The people claiming it's impossible to find a solution also claim that a solution will easily be found during a withdrawal period, so that the backstop will never be needed.
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Which people are these? The only people in a position to negotiate are the UK government.
 
ceptimus said:
The EU want the border to stay open.

The Irish (north and south) want the border to stay open.

The British want the border to stay open.

The real question then is: who on earth is going to close the border, and why?

I suppose you think the EU will reluctantly close the border to preserve the purity of their market, even though they don't really want to, and it will be bitterly opposed by the Irish?

When the overwhelming majority of people want something to happen, why would they then prevent it from happening? That really would be politics gone mad.

If "the rules" mean that you can't do what everyone wants, then it's time to change the rules: these are rules invented by politicians - they're not laws of physics.
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Back again?

Must be 3 days since you said something ridiculous so its time again.
 
lomiller said:
You are being ridiculous. A better analogy would be to say the UK is threatening to put itself in a position where it will be the target of violence unless its demands are met. The EU is rightly answering that the UK threatening to put itself in harms way isn’t a very good reason for the EU to grant concessions.
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The trouble is that Boris isn’t as talented as Bart, and the rest of Europe isn’t as dumb as the inhabitants of Rock Ridge.
 
ceptimus said:
The people claiming it's impossible to find a solution also claim that a solution will easily be found during a withdrawal period, so that the backstop will never be needed.
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Yes, shocking isn't it, how the Brexit camp lies again and again, it's good that even you see this now.
After all the Irish border is both SO complicated that the backstop will never go away and SO simple that glorious Boris can sort out the solution in a weekend, which is why he's not actually done anything about it yet.
 
Nessie said:
Alternatives to the back stop -

- hard border between NI and Eire
- remove Eire from the customs union
- move the backstop to the English Channel and treat goods from Eire as exempted from tariffs.
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The reunification of Ireland would also solve it.
 
Nessie said:
Even if there was no risk of increased violence, there would be massive opposition to a hard border in Ireland. The problem of increased violence is another layer to a multi-layered problem involving personalities, politics, geography, history and religion.

You are doing what many people do to try and understand the issues, you are vastly over simplifying.
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Or the problem of increased violence is not another layer and should be completely dismissed. That is what I'm asking about. But I'm not treating it as a stand in for the whole debate.
 
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