Cont: Brexit: Now What? 9 Below Zero

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ceptimus said:
If the trade negotiations "take longer than expected" and "an extension to the transition period is granted to allow negotiations to continue" then the EU will demand that the UK continue to pay during that extension and, of course, we won't be able to conclude trade deals with other countries during the extension(s). What's not for the EU to like? They'll try to delay things for as long as they can.
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If we get a free trade deal with the EU then the UK will be unable to agree any trade deals with third countries that significantly differ from the deals the EU have with those countries, until until the UK can guarantee that goods travelling from and to the UK can not be diverted to/from the EU.
If we get a free trade deal with America then the EU will only give us the deal the US has. If the EU values free trade with us they will want to get in first.
 
Lothian said:
If we get a free trade deal with the EU then the UK will be unable to agree any trade deals with third countries that significantly differ from the deals the EU have with those countries, until until the UK can guarantee that goods travelling from and to the UK can not be diverted to/from the EU.
If we get a free trade deal with America then the EU will only give us the deal the US has. If the EU values free trade with us they will want to get in first.
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That's why the EU wants to extend and delay. They know the USA can't conclude their deal for as long as we're locked into the transition period.
 
ceptimus said:
One key difference is that the SNP consistently opposed Brexit, holding a referendum, and respecting the result.

Labour voted in favour of holding the referendum, promised to respect the result, and then broke their promise.

SNP stuck to their word and were rewarded by voters. Labour broke their word and were punished by voters.
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I think it is more of a case of Scotland voting against Brexit in the referendum and therefore in favour of a Remain Party in the SNP or even in the Lib Dems who lost their leader but increased their vote share and kept the same number of MPs.

Whereas England and Wales voted Leave and therefore voted the most obvious choice in the Tories.

Northern Ireland which just has different politics because of the sectarian divide actually voted for more remain MPs with the SDLP and gave the DUP a rebuke.

Labour were the losers because their position on Brexit was incoherent and had been since the referendum. Of course, they also lost because of Corbyn but the two things are not easily disentangled. He is a figurehead of the middle that Labour were in.

And also, frankly I agree with you in one way. Although I am against Brexit and although many people have said it is like turkeys voting for Christmas it seems undeniable by now what the turkeys have voted for.
 
GlennB said:
This explains the dispute going on, as 'inbred' doesn't mean 'indoctrinated' at all.
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Well, I mean both "inbred" and "indoctrinated" in the sense of growing up and remaining within a household and a community which has a strong particular political affiliation, such that one's inbuilt instinct is to support that political affiliation almost to the point of blindness.

I didn't realise it needed this degree of explanation, but there you go.
 
LondonJohn said:
Well, I mean both "inbred" and "indoctrinated" in the sense of growing up and remaining within a household and a community which has a strong particular political affiliation, such that one's inbuilt instinct is to support that political affiliation almost to the point of blindness.

I didn't realise it needed this degree of explanation, but there you go.
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Well if you're going to use words in idiosyncratic and/or personal ways then be prepared to be misinterpreted.
 
Darat said:
You may not accept it but it is what the record shows happened.
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No, I don't accept that either. Where's your evidence that he voted against his own deal? I think you imagined that. He stopped pushing it when it was apparent that his opponents were sabotaging and delaying it. Perfectly correct of him to do that, and subsequent events have shown that he did exactly the right thing.
 
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ceptimus said:
No, I don't accept that either. Where's your evidence that he voted against his own deal? I think you imagined that.
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Darat didn't say that he did. As I recall Johnson pulled his own bill at second reading when the pesky HoC wanted a respectable amount of time to debate it (iirc Johnson was proposing 2 days of debate which, iihrc is absurd).
 
angrysoba said:
I think it is more of a case of Scotland voting against Brexit in the referendum and therefore in favour of a Remain Party in the SNP or even in the Lib Dems who lost their leader but increased their vote share and kept the same number of MPs.

Whereas England and Wales voted Leave and therefore voted the most obvious choice in the Tories.

Northern Ireland which just has different politics because of the sectarian divide actually voted for more remain MPs with the SDLP and gave the DUP a rebuke.

Labour were the losers because their position on Brexit was incoherent and had been since the referendum. Of course, they also lost because of Corbyn but the two things are not easily disentangled. He is a figurehead of the middle that Labour were in.

And also, frankly I agree with you in one way. Although I am against Brexit and although many people have said it is like turkeys voting for Christmas it seems undeniable by now what the turkeys have voted for.
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Voters usually throw out politicians that CHOOSE (rather than being forced) to break their promises. It's that simple.
 
Dave Rogers said:
What, promises like "I will not prorogue Parliament"?

Dave
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Boris never made that promise. He said that it wasn't his intention to prorogue it to prevent discussion on Brexit - there was no promise.

As Prime Minister, he HAS to prorogue parliament to end a session and have a Queen's speech. When he did prorogue it, because of the scheduled party conferences, parliament would only have been closed for five days extra anyway.

Of course, his opponents made a huge overblown fuss over it. Look where it's got them now.
 
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The Don said:
A number of my Conservative friends have suggested that Boris Johnson, now that he's no longer beholden to the ERG and DUP will pivot back to the centre and deliver a much "softer" Brexit than his, or Theresa May's deal.

Being Cassandra I've said that it does the complete opposite, it gives him carte blanche to satisfy his financial backers and deliver a no-deal Brexit whilst turning the UK into a regulation-free sweatshop.

Looking at the proposed terms of the Brexit bill, that pivot doesn't seem to be happening:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50818134

Sounds like he's going to fritter away the transition period before those horrid Europeans force the UK to crash out with no-deal.

And how will the UK respond ? ......



Wow, what a shock :rolleyes:, hope those working-class turkeys are looking forward to Christmas
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I'm sure he will moderate himself, it was just an act to get hifmgh office, just as Trump has moderated his actions since becoming POTUS.
 
GlennB said:
Darat didn't say that he did. As I recall Johnson pulled his own bill at second reading when the pesky HoC wanted a respectable amount of time to debate it (iirc Johnson was proposing 2 days of debate which, iihrc is absurd).
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His opponents had already forced a delay to the current date (31st January) by delaying it, and were planning to vote through pro-remain amendments that would have modified the bill beyond recognition.

At that stage, Boris and his government pulled the bill, and proceeded to their current triumph. Let's see his opponents try to delay or amend the bill again now.
 
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Look you have to remember the core principle at stake here, and sacrifice is worth it, be it the ecconomy, national health care, british standing in the world, all of it can be safely traded away to preserve the great british institution of the prawn cocktail crisp! That is what got Johnson into the position he is in and that is what is driving their faith in his ability to deliver a prawn cocktail crisp rich brexit.

It might be the only thing to eat but damn it they will be there!
 
LondonJohn said:
What if the purpose of the legislation is to say to parliament and to the EU that urgency and efficiency in sorting out the withdrawal agreement is now both paramount and unavoidable?
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There is nothing left to sort out. Everyone knows what the 3 options are, all that is left is for Parliament to approve one of them.

If BJ has Parliamentary backing he just needs to move forward either with the Theresa May deal or No Deal Brexit. If he doesn’t, attempting to usurp Parliamentary authority should be grounds for a non-confidence vote and new election.
 
ceptimus said:
If the trade negotiations "take longer than expected" and "an extension to the transition period is granted to allow negotiations to continue" then the EU will demand that the UK continue to pay during that extension and, of course, we won't be able to conclude trade deals with other countries during the extension(s). What's not for the EU to like? They'll try to delay things for as long as they can.
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Get this though your head. There is no shape or form of Brexit where the UK can keep trading with the EU under current terms and have it’s own side deal in force. Either the UK is outside the EU market area with appropriate trade borders and customs between the two markets, or the UK cannot have side deals in effect. Pick one or the other, you can’t mix the two.

This isn’t something that you can negotiate your way around. The EU has no choice but to enforce it’s own borders and trade agreements just like the UK will need to if it leaves the EU. The only delay here is that the UK is still trying to have it's cake and eat it too. If you really want Brexit pick one and move forward and stop blaming everyone else for your own inductiveness.
 
ceptimus said:
That's why the EU wants to extend and delay. They know the USA can't conclude their deal for as long as we're locked into the transition period.
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The EU can't unilaterally extend the transition period. The end date is hard coded into article 126. It will only be changed if we want to change it. We can agree a deal with the US and start it the day after transition. We have already rolled over many desls. Admittedly not with a major player or deals improving on our current deal but there is nothing to stop us agreeing a deal with America and starting it on 1/1/21.

America won't want to start a deal before then for reasons previously given.
 
LondonJohn said:
Well, I mean both "inbred" and "indoctrinated" in the sense of growing up and remaining within a household and a community which has a strong particular political affiliation, such that one's inbuilt instinct is to support that political affiliation almost to the point of blindness.

I didn't realise it needed this degree of explanation, but there you go.
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The correct term is 'incestuous' to refer to the type of industry where everybody knows everybody else.
 
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