Cont: Brexit: Now What? 9 Below Zero

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Then why not move on? Either it's a waste of time or it's sad.
Most folk seem to forget that when Diana died there was a lot of anger directed at the royal family and directly at the Queen in particular, that would have been the moment to get rid of them. Unfortunately the moment passed and credit where credit due, after Diana's death they have had a very good marketing campaign, funded of course by us.
 
Most folk seem to forget that when Diana died there was a lot of anger directed at the royal family and directly at the Queen in particular, that would have been the moment to get rid of them. Unfortunately the moment passed and credit where credit due, after Diana's death they have had a very good marketing campaign, funded of course by us.

I think its a crime that the "royals" are enormously wealthy. As if they did anything to earn any of that. I think it's a bigger crime that people, an entire modern nation in the 21st century is willing to carry on such a charade. It's like the Kardashians on steroids. I guess it sells a lot of tabloids.
 
In any case, for the purpose of maybe finally satisfying psionl0, the point is made that whatever the process of prorogation, under this system any results arising from abuse of that process will be annulled.

That's good.

I feel like the US and the UK have been battling to see which nation can be more dysfunctional. You limeys started off the game with this Brexit nonsense. Then us Yanks raised the ante with Mr. Crazy. Then you guys tried to match our bid with Boris.

I think we're winning still. Or does that mean we're losing? Hmmmm.
 
It does look like the DUP have decided to compromise to a remarkable extent, just to get Brexit done.

Not really. Their "compromise" is just a cover for their refusal to make Northern Ireland stay in the customs union while the rest of the UK leaves.

If Northern Ireland leaves the customs union this means that there needs to be custom checks at the border to prevent the commercial importation of exploding mobile phone chargers and lead toys made in future British sweatshops.
 
I think its a crime that the "royals" are enormously wealthy. As if they did anything to earn any of that. I think it's a bigger crime that people, an entire modern nation in the 21st century is willing to carry on such a charade. It's like the Kardashians on steroids. I guess it sells a lot of tabloids.

New Zealand has the Queen's representative here with similar powers over we subjects as she has over hers'. I guess the meek acquiescence to the illegal proroguing could happen here.
 
I find it interesting and depressing that (almost) all of the Conservatives who were kicked out of the party and a number of Labour Brexiteers seem to be enthusiastically behind Boris Johnson's latest set of demands - even though they are completely unworkable, unacceptable to the EU, and will break the Good Friday Agreement. :(
 
A couple of simple questions I hope someone here can answer about the UK proposal.
(1)Customs checks are not only on businesses. Anyone importing goods needs to pay the correct taxes. Fly into an airport from outside the EU and you make a declaration by choosing the green or red channel.
Anyone know how a law abiding citizen crossing from Eire to NI with a couple of bottles of Bushmills will pay the duty and import tax?
(2) Commercial goods coming into the UK from outside the EU are predeclared and the declaration Is checked at the border and only if satisfactory are they sent onward to a customs clearing facility. If you turn up without declaring the goods you need to make a declaration before you physically can move the goods. With no border in NI and only the inland clearing depots The proposal suggests there will not be anything to physically prevent goods without a declaration moving to NI or to the mainland via the NI border. Are we working on trust that all importers will make the declarations and take themselves to the clearing depot to pay the relevent taxes?
 
A couple of simple questions I hope someone here can answer about the UK proposal.
(1)Customs checks are not only on businesses. Anyone importing goods needs to pay the correct taxes. Fly into an airport from outside the EU and you make a declaration by choosing the green or red channel.
Anyone know how a law abiding citizen crossing from Eire to NI with a couple of bottles of Bushmills will pay the duty and import tax?

No and nothing I have read goes into that level of detail for private purchases.

(2) Commercial goods coming into the UK from outside the EU are predeclared and the declaration Is checked at the border and only if satisfactory are they sent onward to a customs clearing facility. If you turn up without declaring the goods you need to make a declaration before you physically can move the goods. With no border in NI and only the inland clearing depots The proposal suggests there will not be anything to physically prevent goods without a declaration moving to NI or to the mainland via the NI border. Are we working on trust that all importers will make the declarations and take themselves to the clearing depot to pay the relevent taxes?

Yes.

https://assets.publishing.service.g...a/file/836116/Explanatory_Note_Accessible.pdf

"All goods movements between Northern Ireland and Ireland will be notified using a declaration."

"Trusted trader scheme"

"Special provision would be made for small traders to ensure that requirements on them could be simplified. These simplifications should respect the nature of economic activity between Northern Ireland and Ireland and should ensure that any special circumstances regarding the purpose for which goods move between customs territories, the nature of the goods, or the nature of the trader carrying out the movement, are all taken into account. Some small traders should be exempted from processes and from paying duty altogether. These measures would need to be carefully designed so they target the traders most in need of support while continuing to ensure compliance as far as possible"
 
So the likes of the lib dems only want a government of national unity on their terms. Not very national nor unifying of them.

The post you quoted demonstrates how even if the Lib Dems supported Corbyn he still wouldn't be able to command a majority. The Lib Dems are not seeking "their terms", they are seeking a leader that in the real world could actually form a government of national unity.
 
The post you quoted demonstrates how even if the Lib Dems supported Corbyn he still wouldn't be able to command a majority. The Lib Dems are not seeking "their terms", they are seeking a leader that in the real world could actually form a government of national unity.

As long as that leader isn't Corbyn....

Face it they are all as power hungry and status grabbing as each other.
 
Then why not move on? Either it's a waste of time or it's sad.

For better or for worse, the Queen acts as a final balance of power. She very, very rarely exercises her power, but some people are envisioning a situation in which she might in the very near future.

ATM, there is no actual law requiring a PM who has lost a vote of no confidence to resign. It's just been tradition and the "gentleman's agreement" of UK politics to date that has meant that every one who has lost such a vote did resign. If Johnson were to refuse to leave after losing a vote of no confidence, then the only way for him to be removed would be for the Queen to fire him and appoint a new PM.

It was reported a little while ago (last week, maybe?) that the Queen had indeed been seeking legal advice about her powers to remove the PM in an extraordinary circumstance like that.

This isn't to say that there can't be better systems, but she does have a purpose. As does the also-unelected-by-the-public House of Lords.

UK politics is set up with a series of built-in checks and balances. How effective they all are, and how democratic and fair they all are is a matter for debate. But the idea that we should just "move on" is simplistic.

It's also worth noting the difference between how it is on paper and how it is in reality. From my observations people in the US tend to be far more deferential towards and worshipful of their politicians than people in the UK are of theirs - or even the Queen.

Similarly, the UK has a state religion with the Queen as the head of it, and a law requiring an act of collective worship for schoolchildren in schools, every single day. Separation of Church and state is absolutely not a thing here (as the fact that the Lords Spiritual in the House of Lords are 26 Bishops).

But in practice it seems that US politics is more influenced by religion, and people in the US seem more accepting of religion in politics. There was a survey a while back which indicated that a politician who was openly atheist had very little chance of being elected in the US. OTOH, an overtly religious politician would be seen as strange and suspicious over here. I can't imagine a politician mentioning God in a speech, Tony Blair avoided converting to Catholicism until he was out of office and when asked about his religious beliefs a spokesperson famously said "we don't do God".

And as for the daily act of collective worship in schools? The majority of headteachers just ignore it and break the law, with zero consequence. I have, in fact, had debates with people who had been teachers in the UK for decades who had no idea that that law even existed.

A lot of how these things work are based on tradition and convention, and aren't quite how they seem. This is, in fact, why Johnson and Cummings are having the impact they're having and are quite as dangerous at they are - they're undermining the traditions and conventions. Perhaps that means that steps should be taken to mitigate the possibility of that kind of thing in the future, but these are extraordinary times and such protections simply haven't been needed before. Similarly, if the Queen were to try to overstep the limits of her power, that would almost certainly lead to her losing her power altogether.
 
I think its a crime that the "royals" are enormously wealthy. As if they did anything to earn any of that. I think it's a bigger crime that people, an entire modern nation in the 21st century is willing to carry on such a charade. It's like the Kardashians on steroids. I guess it sells a lot of tabloids.

Most of the time the royal family is just ignored, by the people and the tabloids alike. Well, other than the years that the Daily Express had daily headlines promoting conspiracy theories about Diana's death.
 
Everyone who doesn't want Jeremy Corbyn to be PM are the ones to blame for Jeremy Corbyn not being PM.

Pretty much. But looks like we can't pretend that JC could lead a unity government, or even that he could if not for the LibDems holding out.

Not very national or unifying of him to insist on me me me.

If JC doesnt have the numbers then nobody else does either. So let's just let Bojo do what he likes because the kids can't play nicely together.

This is not about who is the PM other than it not being a hard right Tory in the pocket of disaster capitalists.
 
For better or for worse, the Queen acts as a final balance of power. She very, very rarely exercises her power, but some people are envisioning a situation in which she might in the very near future.

ATM, there is no actual law requiring a PM who has lost a vote of no confidence to resign. It's just been tradition and the "gentleman's agreement" of UK politics to date that has meant that every one who has lost such a vote did resign. If Johnson were to refuse to leave after losing a vote of no confidence, then the only way for him to be removed would be for the Queen to fire him and appoint a new PM.

It was reported a little while ago (last week, maybe?) that the Queen had indeed been seeking legal advice about her powers to remove the PM in an extraordinary circumstance like that.

This isn't to say that there can't be better systems, but she does have a purpose. As does the also-unelected-by-the-public House of Lords.

UK politics is set up with a series of built-in checks and balances. How effective they all are, and how democratic and fair they all are is a matter for debate. But the idea that we should just "move on" is simplistic.

It's also worth noting the difference between how it is on paper and how it is in reality. From my observations people in the US tend to be far more deferential towards and worshipful of their politicians than people in the UK are of theirs - or even the Queen.

Similarly, the UK has a state religion with the Queen as the head of it, and a law requiring an act of collective worship for schoolchildren in schools, every single day. Separation of Church and state is absolutely not a thing here (as the fact that the Lords Spiritual in the House of Lords are 26 Bishops).

But in practice it seems that US politics is more influenced by religion, and people in the US seem more accepting of religion in politics. There was a survey a while back which indicated that a politician who was openly atheist had very little chance of being elected in the US. OTOH, an overtly religious politician would be seen as strange and suspicious over here. I can't imagine a politician mentioning God in a speech, Tony Blair avoided converting to Catholicism until he was out of office and when asked about his religious beliefs a spokesperson famously said "we don't do God".

And as for the daily act of collective worship in schools? The majority of headteachers just ignore it and break the law, with zero consequence. I have, in fact, had debates with people who had been teachers in the UK for decades who had no idea that that law even existed.

A lot of how these things work are based on tradition and convention, and aren't quite how they seem. This is, in fact, why Johnson and Cummings are having the impact they're having and are quite as dangerous at they are - they're undermining the traditions and conventions. Perhaps that means that steps should be taken to mitigate the possibility of that kind of thing in the future, but these are extraordinary times and such protections simply haven't been needed before. Similarly, if the Queen were to try to overstep the limits of her power, that would almost certainly lead to her losing her power altogether.

Actually i think the FTPA does not detail the process for an official VONC
 
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