Cont: Brexit: Now What? 7th heaven...

[catsmate]

<snip>
Intervention by Cthulhu?

Even eldritch horrors from beyond normal space-time don't want to get involved in this mess.

 

[The Don]

So your boss puts you on a zero-hours contract. You find yourself kicking your heels at home. You work very few hours so you go down to the Benefits office. They put you on Universal Credit. Five weeks later you have a few coins in your pocket for food, the bills are mounting up, interest is accruing on your credit card at an alarming rate because of you can only make 'minumum payment' you are still waiting for your Univefrsal Credit benefit to come through.

In the meantime you discover your boss has taken on a Romanian worker paying him a fraction of what you were being paid, as in Romania, average monthly wage is £200, so he is ecstatic to be now earning £600 pcm.

Does the government or the EU care? No sirree. The EU was a capitalist idea.

Employers love the idea of cheaper labour and raw materials.

Enter the Labour party and trade unions.

It takes someone like Jeremy Corbyn to stand up to the stripping away of workers rights (and that includes all of you who like to consider yourselves middle class or professional class).

No wonder the Tory press hates him and defames him at every opportunity.

Yes, that is the oft-quoted and well worn narrative but it simply isn't supported by fact. As the study I linked to showed, the lowering of wages caused by immigrants simply hasn't happened.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

The issue of expatriate voting is an interesting one and linked to the question of contribution to and involvement in society as much as anything else.
Does someone really deserve the right to vote in a country when they're no-longer contributing to it (via taxation) or involved with it on a day-to-day basis, merely because they're citizens.
Perhaps a limited franchise, parliamentary elections and referenda only?

I'd also point out that UK citizens living outside the UK only lose their franchise after fifteen years, if they were registered to vote before leaving.

I personally don't think people who have decided to leave the country should really be given a consideration although I can see an argument in this case since it was going to affect them directly this time around.

I would rather more people IN the country had the right to vote first. Such as more Non-EU citizens who are resident here, 16/17 year olds, etc.

 

[KDLarsen]

How? She can't be ousted as leader of the party.

Presumably the 'Men in grey suits' that did Thatcher in. A quiet tap on the shoulder, a few words about rebels potentially supporting a motion of no confidence, and out she goes.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I think it would. Expect it to present preconditions that would make any thus achieved deal inferior to this one.



I would be too in their shoes, for obvious reasons. The other red line that can be sacrificed is an independent trade policy.

You know, to be like Norway.

Wouldn't it be terrible if we were like Norway and Switzerland?" Really? They're rich. They're happy. They're self governing.
--Nigel Farage, 2013

My point is this deal is not the only possible deal. It's the only deal that can be done with British red lines.



Yes. But a new general election would mean a new government, a new PM and, perhaps, a different Brexit platform and strategy. There are sensible approaches still: accept a deal that makes UK spayed and neutered both (Norway option), with a clause that allows UK to move out of single market and/or customs union, pending a few conditions. Most conditions would be regarding the Irish border, for obvious reasons. Allow for a plan that takes UK out of EU first, then progress further to single market and customs union and other institutions, slowly excising the country out. You can't upend 40 years of integration in two years and not break all the eggs, leaving the EU would be a process taking 20 years or more by necessity.

Of course should the electorate wise up in the meantime that too must be taken into account.

That's the proper, democratic way to go about Brexit. If there is a new election maybe the new government will use it. They can always blame Theresa May for putting them in this situation in the first place.

McHrozni

The one danger with a GE is that there is significant chance that you end up with a nutjob Brexiteer Tory PM who thinks no deal is a good idea and has a majority in Parliament to make it happen.

 

[3point14]

I think it would. Expect it to present preconditions that would make any thus achieved deal inferior to this one.



I would be too in their shoes, for obvious reasons. The other red line that can be sacrificed is an independent trade policy.

You know, to be like Norway.

Wouldn't it be terrible if we were like Norway and Switzerland?" Really? They're rich. They're happy. They're self governing.
--Nigel Farage, 2013McHrozni

I wonder if Nige knows about this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_Norway

 

[Vixen]

By supporting and enabling the Tory Brexit that will set fire to the workers protections provided by the EU.

No he doesn't support it. His Brexit keeps the UK in the customs union but restricts free movement of workers and protects workers rights.

 

[The Don]

My point is this deal is not the only possible deal. It's the only deal that can be done with British red lines.

You're absolutely right but both of the major parties have the same critical red lines - which prevent a close relationship with the EU:

• Both are against the "four freedoms" which removes EEA membership (i.e. a Norway-like deal) from the table
• Both require the UK to have separate trade deals which removes Customs Union membership from the table

They're as deluded as each other

 

[The Don]

No he doesn't support it. His Brexit keeps the UK in the customs union but restricts free movement of workers and protects workers rights.

Except "his" Brexit is just as fantastical as those proposed by the arch-Brexiteers because it thinks that the UK can be a member of a Customs Union whilst having separate trade deals with countries which have EU trade deals.

In other words, his Brexit is unachievable.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

No he doesn't support it. His Brexit keeps the UK in the customs union but restricts free movement of workers and protects workers rights.

He does support it. He doesn't oppose it in Parliament when given the chance. He just lets it happen.

His unicorns and ice cream Brexit dream is irrelevant since its not what is being proposed.

He's a ******* fraud.

 

[The Don]

Presumably the 'Men in grey suits' that did Thatcher in. A quiet tap on the shoulder, a few words about rebels potentially supporting a motion of no confidence, and out she goes.

I doubt it. Margaret Thatcher wanted to lead, and so when she got the tap on the shoulder she knew she had to step down or be PM in name only. IMO Theresa May OTOH just wants to be PM and would tolerate being PMINO as long as she could stay in post.

 

[catsmate]

So your boss puts you on a zero-hours contract. You find yourself kicking your heels at home. You work very few hours so you go down to the Benefits office. They put you on Universal Credit. Five weeks later you have a few coins in your pocket for food, the bills are mounting up, interest is accruing on your credit card at an alarming rate because of you can only make 'minimum payment' you are still waiting for your Universal Credit benefit to come through.

In the meantime you discover your boss has taken on a Romanian worker paying him a fraction of what you were being paid, as in Romania, average monthly wage is £200, so he is ecstatic to be now earning £600 pcm.

Will you be citing example of this actually happening?

 

[catsmate]

Yes, that is the oft-quoted and well worn narrative but it simply isn't supported by fact. As the study I linked to showed, the lowering of wages caused by immigrants simply hasn't happened.

Indeed, ideological and xenophobic fantasies.

 

[McHrozni]

The one danger with a GE is that there is significant chance that you end up with a nutjob Brexiteer Tory PM who thinks no deal is a good idea and has a majority in Parliament to make it happen.

True. But that would leave the UK with a functional government after Brexit. Right now that would be a cause for celebration.

It would also ensure the said PM and MPs and their party would eat the entirety of the blame, there is no one to pin it to if you campaigned on it and delivered.

Accountability, you know. Democracy at work.

McHrozni

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

True. But that would leave the UK with a functional government after Brexit. Right now that would be a cause for celebration.

It would also ensure the said PM and MPs and their party would eat the entirety of the blame, there is no one to pin it to if you campaigned on it and delivered.

Accountability, you know. Democracy at work.

McHrozni

A functional government but not a functioning country sadly.

People would die. It's really not a political game.

 

[jimbob]

I'd like to share this if I may. Did you write it? Brilliant.

likewise

 

[Pixel42]

I'd like to share this if I may. Did you write it? Brilliant.

It was posted on another forum by someone who said they saw it on The Poke. I have no idea what that is.

 

[McHrozni]

You're absolutely right but both of the major parties have the same critical red lines - which prevent a close relationship with the EU:

• Both are against the "four freedoms" which removes EEA membership (i.e. a Norway-like deal) from the table
• Both require the UK to have separate trade deals which removes Customs Union membership from the table

They're as deluded as each other

True. But that's just one of the possibility, a customs border in the Irish sea is another.

My point isn't that there are palpatable alternatives, just that alternatives do exist, if someone should consider them.

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

A functional government but not a functioning country sadly.

People would die. It's really not a political game.

It would be less bad than a no deal a week from now. Even if people still died, it would be proven who the executioner was. That too is worth a lot, come next election.

McHrozni

 

[catsmate]

I personally don't think people who have decided to leave the country should really be given a consideration although I can see an argument in this case since it was going to affect them directly this time around.

I would rather more people IN the country had the right to vote first. Such as more Non-EU citizens who are resident here, 16/17 year olds, etc.

That's an interesting point; Jersey, Guernsey and the IoM already allow sixteen-year-olds to vote, as does Scotland.
Resident non-citizens can vote, for certain purposes, in certain countries. I have done so a couple of times.