Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts

[Puppycow]

You may have heard the recent news that the Boy Scouts will now start allowing girls to join. Earlier this year they had decided to start allowing transgender boys to join. The Girl Scouts did that a few years ago, around 2015 I think.

It seems like a logical decision to me: instead of getting into a whole debate about transgender issues, why not just allow kids who want to join to join regardless of sex. Makes it a moot issue. Also, parents of girls who want to join have been asking the Boy Scouts for years to allow girls in.

The Girl Scouts don't seem to be happy about it though. They think the Boy Scouts are trying to poach from them:

Girls are stars in Girl Scouts. They'd be supporting players in Boy Scouts.

We are disappointed that Boy Scouts of America has chosen to open its program to girls in contravention of its charter, rather than focusing on the 90% of American boys not being served by Boy Scouts. We believe strongly in the importance of the safe, all-girl, girl-led and girl-friendly environment that Girl Scouts provides.

And she claims to have "Science" to prove it. It is such a transparently self-serving argument. What works for most should therefore be mandatory for all. Why not let the kids themselves decide? Didn't we all know girls like that when we were kids? The tomboys who liked to play with the boys, doing boy stuff? And vice-versa too. Some boys might rather join the Girl Scouts. Don't force kids to change their whole gender identity if all they want is to play with other kids who like they same sort of things they do.

Anyway, I think the decision to allow girls who want to join the Boy Scouts to join is the right decision. The criticism coming from the Girl Scouts seems to be coming from the narrow viewpoint of is this good for our organization in particular, not whether offering an alternative choice might be good for some girls. Maybe in the future they'll just drop the "Boy" altogether and just call them Scouts?

 

[Worm]

If girls want to join the all-girl, girl-led organisation, then they can. For those who don't, there is now an alternative. I'm not sure how more choice can be criticised particularly.

Yes, more boys would benefit from joining such an organisation (though Scouting organisations are hardly faultless). But if even one girl gets the opportunity to participate, when she was not keen on the girl only option, then all is good.

 

[Babbylonian]

If girls want to join the all-girl, girl-led organisation, then they can. For those who don't, there is now an alternative. I'm not sure how more choice can be criticised particularly.

Yes, more boys would benefit from joining such an organisation (though Scouting organisations are hardly faultless). But if even one girl gets the opportunity to participate, when she was not keen on the girl only option, then all is good.

The more options, the better. The Boy Scouts have been improving their policies, and this seems like a good example.

When I was in 1st grade, there were no Cub Scouts troops nearby for me to join, so I became a Brownie. My membership was brief (we moved a few times while I was K-2), but I had a lot of fun with the girls in the troop. I didn't enjoy Cub Scouts nearly as much when I tried that out later; the troop to which I belonged was a virtual bully training camp.

 

[Andy_Ross]

What's the fuss?

In the UK girls were allowed to join the Venture Scouts section for 16- to 20-year-olds in 1976 and all sections in sections in 1991, although the admission of girls was optional and has only been compulsory since 2007. Girls now make up 25% of participants with a total of 94,366 female participants aged between 6 and 25 and a further 50,600 women involved in volunteer roles.

 

[Ryokan]

In Norway we just have scouts. Everyone can join. I have never heard of any problems regarding this.

 

[Brainster]

I'm guessing the Girl Scouts will hold out for now (i.e., not allow boys to join). And there won't be much pressure against them, because few boys will want to become Girl Scouts, for obvious reasons.

The problem as I see it is that the scouting years tend to bleed into the puberty years. So now you've got a whole bunch of roughly 10-to-13-year-olds of mixed gender camping out in the woods together. You're going to need a whole lot more adult supervision to make that work.

 

[Pterodactyl]

Based on what I've heard, the Girlscouts position here isn't the only self-serving one. A big portion of what props up BSA are the Church of LDS. Who are rumored to be pulling out after BSA has admitted transgender kids, gay leaders, etc. I've heard they plan to start their own, similar organization.

With this in mind, BSA has decided to allow girls, as the organization will basically fall apart when the LDS leaves, so they have to make up the numbers somehow. So basically it's about numbers, not prompted by fairness or anything like that.

 

[Information Analyst]

What's the fuss?

In the UK girls were allowed to join the Venture Scouts section for 16- to 20-year-olds in 1976 and all sections in sections in 1991, although the admission of girls was optional and has only been compulsory since 2007. Girls now make up 25% of participants with a total of 94,366 female participants aged between 6 and 25 and a further 50,600 women involved in volunteer roles.

Apparently Girlguiding (as they now are) remains girls-only, but they're progressive on trans members and leaders.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Based on what I've heard, the Girlscouts position here isn't the only self-serving one. A big portion of what props up BSA are the Church of LDS. Who are rumored to be pulling out after BSA has admitted transgender kids, gay leaders, etc. I've heard they plan to start their own, similar organization.

With this in mind, BSA has decided to allow girls, as the organization will basically fall apart when the LDS leaves, so they have to make up the numbers somehow. So basically it's about numbers, not prompted by fairness or anything like that.

LDS has been threatening that since the 90s. I wonder how successful that will be.

It's worth noting that LDS troops don't have to allow anyone who isn't LDS. So the liberalization of other troops shouldn't impact the LDS. But of course, it does.

 

[crescent]

LDS has been threatening that since the 90s. I wonder how successful that will be.

It's worth noting that LDS troops don't have to allow anyone who isn't LDS. So the liberalization of other troops shouldn't impact the LDS. But of course, it does.

Two other things at play in the BSA/LDS dynamic:

1: BSA owns a lot of real estate. Here in Colorado I know of at least three big scout camps, hundreds of acres each developed with campgrounds, dining facilities, and various setups for activities - there may be more, I have not looked. Colorado is not unique that way. Quit BSA, lose access to a whole lot of facilities.
2: LDS really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really wants to be perceived as a mainstream religion. Like BSA, LDS is a group that struggles with how to manage itself in our current era of social division. If staying with BSA helps them appear to be mainstream, they'll knuckle under and do it.

 

[CORed]

I'm guessing the Girl Scouts will hold out for now (i.e., not allow boys to join). And there won't be much pressure against them, because few boys will want to become Girl Scouts, for obvious reasons.

The problem as I see it is that the scouting years tend to bleed into the puberty years. So now you've got a whole bunch of roughly 10-to-13-year-olds of mixed gender camping out in the woods together. You're going to need a whole lot more adult supervision to make that work.

Campfire (formerly Campfire Girls) has been co-ed for many years now. I can't claim to know much about the organization, but I haven't heard of any problems related to co-ed camping. Sure, it's possible (or probable) that some extra-curricular sexual activity will happen, but the kids who want to are going to find a way, whether they're out camping or not.

 

[madurobob]

LDS has been threatening that since the 90s. I wonder how successful that will be.

It's worth noting that LDS troops don't have to allow anyone who isn't LDS. So the liberalization of other troops shouldn't impact the LDS. But of course, it does.

I know plenty of folks in Scouting who have been hoping to reign in the LDS grip on upper leadership. In general, they don't want to kick anyone out, but they blame the LDS leadership for a lot of bad press and bad policy over the past decade or so. It was due to LDS-driven policy that school systems across the country kicked Scouting out of schools, and more liberal churches kicked out the troops they supported.

The changes over the past few years - ending prohibition on homosexuality, admitting transgender, etc... is re-opening those school and church doors.

FWIW - there was a girl in my BS troop back in the late 70s. Nobody batted an eye as far as I remember. Tho, in those pre-internet days nobody outside the troop could ever really check up on it, and she didn't go to the big multi-troop events. Then again, I was kicked out of the troop after several months for sneaking out of a particularly boring troop meeting and visiting the nearby planetarium instead.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

If girls want to join the all-girl, girl-led organisation, then they can. For those who don't, there is now an alternative. I'm not sure how more choice can be criticised particularly.

So the number of choices has increased because now girls can either join a mixed sex scouting group or an all girls one?

Are you forgetting this choice was created by removing the option for boys to join an all boys scouting group?

It has “boy” in the name for god’s sake. This is absurd.

Boys do benefit from having all male learning environments.

 

[madurobob]

So the number of choices has increased because now girls can either join a mixed sex scouting group or an all girls one?

Are you forgetting this choice was created by removing the option for boys to join an all boys scouting group?

It has “boy” in the name for god’s sake. This is absurd.

Boys do benefit from having all male learning environments.

Interestingly, in most of my meetings with scout leaders over the past few years they all refer to "scouting" not "boy scouts". The web address has always been scouting.org. Not boyscouts, not BSA, etc... Its almost like they had this non-gender-specific approach in mind long ago.

What benefits do boys receive from all male learning environments such as scouting?

 

[Belz...]

So are they going to be called Young People Scouts, now?

 

[BobTheCoward]

Interestingly, in most of my meetings with scout leaders over the past few years they all refer to "scouting" not "boy scouts". The web address has always been scouting.org. Not boyscouts, not BSA, etc... Its almost like they had this non-gender-specific approach in mind long ago.

What benefits do boys receive from all male learning environments such as scouting?

The post Tank responded to said this,

I'm not sure how more choice can be criticised particularly.

Whether beneficial or not is irrelevant. The discussion is about quantity of choice.

 

[mgidm86]

I'm guessing the Girl Scouts will hold out for now (i.e., not allow boys to join). And there won't be much pressure against them, because few boys will want to become Girl Scouts, for obvious reasons.

The problem as I see it is that the scouting years tend to bleed into the puberty years. So now you've got a whole bunch of roughly 10-to-13-year-olds of mixed gender camping out in the woods together . You're going to need a whole lot more adult supervision to make that work.

Those reasons?

Second highlited - you mean boys are different from girls? Isn't this how the whole thing started?!?! Yes, let's mix them all together and create more problems!

Gee here's a thought, let's have one organization just for boys and one for girls. WTFF?

My guess is that revenue and membership are down.

 

[Meadmaker]

Interestingly, in most of my meetings with scout leaders over the past few years they all refer to "scouting" not "boy scouts". The web address has always been scouting.org. Not boyscouts, not BSA, etc... Its almost like they had this non-gender-specific approach in mind long ago.

What benefits do boys receive from all male learning environments such as scouting?

Greater ability to concentrate.


Other than that, I look at what my kid did in Boy Scouts, and I can't think of any reason the experience would have been diminished if girls were around.

Venture scouts are already co-ed, and if there were a problem with including girls, it would occur there, but they seem to have gotten along just fine.


I'm generally opposed to efforts to pretend that there are no differences between boys and girls, men and women, but in the case of the things that Boy Scouts do, I can't see any really sex-specific activities.

 

[dudalb]

This topic is just Screaming for a little Tom Lehrer (last verse in particular):

Be prepared! That's the Boy Scout's marching song,
Be prepared! As through life you march along.
Be prepared to hold your liquor pretty well,
Don't write naughty words on walls if you can't spell.

Be prepared! To hide that pack of cigarettes,
Don't make book if you cannot cover bets.
Keep that pot well hidden where you're sure
That it will not be found
And be careful not to turn on
When the scoutmaster's around
For he only will insist that it be shared.
Be prepared!

Be prepared! That's the Boy Scouts' solemn creed,
Be prepared! And be clean in word and deed.
Don't solicit for your sister, that's not nice,
Unless you get a good percentage of her price.

Be prepared! And be careful not to do
Your good deeds when there's no one watching you.
If you're looking for adventure of a
new and different kind,
And you come across a Girl Scout who is
similarly inclined,
Don't be nervous, don't be flustered, don't be scared.
Be prepared!

 

[cullennz]

Always wondered why they don't just merge the Scouts and Girl Guides

Probably annoy a great many people though

Odd here

Girls have been able to join the senior scouts here since the late 70s, and little kids since the mid 80s, but boys still cant join the guides