Botched Execution, Again

[ehcks]

You should be concerned that the State is distorting the market by creating a monopoly, eliminating competition, and stifling innovation.

Innovation in what... ways to instantly kill people? We've got plenty of those.

 

[RationalVetMed]

Why is this multi-drug protocol required? Wouldn't a large dose of barbiturates by itself cause a painless death? What do veterinarians use to put large animals "to sleep?"

Vets use a large dose of barbiturates and in the majority of cases it seems to result in a stress-free, painless euthanasia. Occasionally we might use a sedative beforehand (e.g. Midazolam, as was used in this case) which has the effect of calming the animal but can prolong the time taken to expire following the i/v injection of barbiturates.

In this case apparently a vein 'blew', resulting in some of the drug intended to go i/v going under the skin, into soft tissues, effectively reducing the dose administered. I'm not familiar with the other two drugs used - vecuronium bromide and potassium chloride - but they aren't barbiturates. The whole process sounds unnecessarily complicated to me; and the more complicated a system, the more potential there is for mistakes to be made.

See - http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...n-botched-clayton-lockett?CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2

Yuri

 

[Rolfe]

The system seems to be based on existing (though I think outdated) methods of anaesthesia, rather than existing tried-and-tested methods of euthanasia. (As Yuri says, just ask a vet.) This has introduced a series of wholly unnecessary complications that foul up the procedure.

One of the problems seems to be that the method has to be usable by "lay" operatives, because medical personnel won't get involved. Standard euthanasia is easy enough if you're practised in getting a vein. Prison officers, however, are not.

Indeed, shooting works. Ask any equine vet. It's onlookers who spoil this by being squeamish.

Rolfe.

 

[Caper]

Well that's your opinion, but it isn't mine. I'm against the death penalty in all cases but I recognise that the US has the right to be as barbaric as it wants. If the US is going to kill people then it should do so without unnecessary pain and suffering.

If I'm against the death penalty it is because of the potential to kill an innocent person.... I don't really find it all that barbaric either.

 

[BardKesnit]

Two things first...
1) I actually oppose the death penalty. My questions are not intended as arguments in favor.
2) I'm not a medical professional.

This was followed by injections of vecuronium bromide, a paralyzing agent that stops breathing,

If breathing is paralyzed, how are they speaking? Especially in long, complete sentences?


About two years ago, I had to have one of my dogs put to sleep. The vet injected him, then listened to his heartbeat. Just after she told me his heart had stopped, his body shuddered and he exhaled. She explained that that was his muscles (especially the diaphragm) relaxing.*

The accounts of prisoner suffering are not coming from medical professionals. They are coming from witnesses who are likely under a lot of stress, given the circumstances. It makes more sense to me to think that these lay witnesses are seeing normal reactions, but (from lack of medical knowledge) assuming they are something they are not. As for prisoners speaking, it's well known that the human brain tries to make sense out of nothing. (i.e. seeing shapes in clouds). Isn't it possible that the "words" are just sounds that witness's brains are turning into coherent sentences?




* Or something like that. She did explain it, but, as you can imagine, my mind was otherwise occupied with crying.

 

[RationalVetMed]

One of the problems seems to be that the method has to be usable by "lay" operatives, because medical personnel won't get involved. Standard euthanasia is easy enough if you're practised in getting a vein. Prison officers, however, are not.

Rolfe.

Now that's something I hadn't thought about.

So, if the person getting the vein for an execution isn't medical and only ever gets veins for this purpose they must be very inexperienced surely? I'm not sure how many executions are carried out by lethal injection but I've always thought it wasn't that many. How do they practice?

Coincidentally, since my post above, I've just had to euthanase a paraplegic dog who was aggressive and the vein blew (it was old, obese and debilitated). The sedative combination I used first though, meant she was already unconscious and didn't feel it (barbiturates can sting) and meant I had time to find another, useable vein. It all still seemed to go peacefully.

The Guardian article above seems to suggest that Oklahoma use a much lower dose of midazolam than other states. Maybe that's why he appeared to react when the vein blew?

Yuri

 

[NWO Sentryman]

Well that's your opinion, but it isn't mine. I'm against the death penalty in all cases but I recognise that the US has the right to be as barbaric as it wants. If the US is going to kill people then it should do so without unnecessary pain and suffering.

This is why you use a time honoured tradition of a bullet to the head. Quick. Humane. Cheap.

Besides, I doubt putting things like Mark Bridger or Ian Watkins out of society's misery is "barbaric". Last I checked, theft didn't get your hand cut off in the US.

 

[Autolite]

Whoa!

This is really giving me second thoughts about my plans to go to death penalty states and commit capital crimes...

 

[The Don]

This is why you use a time honoured tradition of a bullet to the head. Quick. Humane. Cheap.

Not necessarily for the person responsible for delivering the bullet.

Besides, I doubt putting things like Mark Bridger or Ian Watkins out of society's misery is "barbaric". Last I checked, theft didn't get your hand cut off in the US.

I know you doubt it, after all you advocate the extra-judicial killing of prisoners by fellow inmates. IMO the death sentence is barbaric.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

Not necessarily for the person responsible for delivering the bullet.

If the inmate in that cell is Mark Bridger, Ian Huntley or Jeffrey Dahmer, I would happily pull the trigger. Still, it's quick, cheap, effective and extremely hard to botch.

I know you doubt it, after all you advocate the extra-judicial killing of prisoners by fellow inmates. IMO the death sentence is barbaric.

Which sets a REALLY low bar for "barbaric" (which would also cover Japan or India or China, which carries all those unfortunate implications), while it is an extension of the state's monopoly on force. I guess putting every inmate on 24 hour suicide watch/solitary confinement is "not barbaric" then?

 

[Cuddles]

which would also cover Japan or India or China, which carries all those unfortunate implications

I'm confused. Exactly what "unfortunate implications" do you think there are for saying that the death penalty is barbaric no matter what country it is carried out it?

 

[aggle-rithm]

Also.... what is so hard about putting a gun to a death row inmates had and pulling the trigger?... All this stuff about slow and painful.

There's an inherent conflict in the two requirements for a humane execution:

1. The victim cannot suffer, and

2. The execution has to LOOK gentle and kind to outside observers.

There are plenty of ways to instantly obliterate someone's consciousness, thus making the death quick and painless, but when you add the complication of making it look humane it becomes much more problematic.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

I'm confused. Exactly what "unfortunate implications" do you think there are for saying that the death penalty is barbaric no matter what country it is carried out it?

"Barbaric" was often used to justify bigotry (See the Greek use of the term, as well as "zomg them brown/yellow people are behaving barbarically!" during the Age of Imperialism).

 

[Professor Yaffle]

"Barbaric" was often used to justify bigotry (See the Greek use of the term, as well as "zomg them brown/yellow people are behaving barbarically!" during the Age of Imperialism).

And?

 

[NWO Sentryman]

And?

My point is that "Barbaric" is a VERY bad descriptor, often used by pretentious gits to boost their own inflated sense of morality.

 

[ddt]

There's an inherent conflict in the two requirements for a humane execution:

1. The victim cannot suffer, and

2. The execution has to LOOK gentle and kind to outside observers.

There are plenty of ways to instantly obliterate someone's consciousness, thus making the death quick and painless, but when you add the complication of making it look humane it becomes much more problematic.

I don't think there's any inherent conflict in those two requirements. The same holds for euthanasia. However, US prisons don't seem to be able to obtain the right drugs and/or personnel to carry it out.

 

[The Don]

If the inmate in that cell is Mark Bridger, Ian Huntley or Jeffrey Dahmer, I would happily pull the trigger. Still, it's quick, cheap, effective and extremely hard to botch.

No doubt you genuinely believe that you could put a gun to someone's head, pull the trigger, see the gory mess as the bullet goes through the head and not find it traumatic. Who knows, you could even be in the tiny proportion of people who could actually do it, but it's far more likely that you'd suffer post-traumatic stress from the episode.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

No doubt you genuinely believe that you could put a gun to someone's head, pull the trigger, see the gory mess as the bullet goes through the head and not find it traumatic. Who knows, you could even be in the tiny proportion of people who could actually do it, but it's far more likely that you'd suffer post-traumatic stress from the episode.

If people can go hunting and be willing to kill deer if they watched Bambi in their childhood, they would most certainly be able to kill criminals.

 

[The Don]

My point is that "Barbaric" is a VERY bad descriptor, often used by pretentious gits to boost their own inflated sense of morality.

Well it's fortunate that in this case the term barbaric was chosen carefully by this not-pretentious non-git to express his revulsion at the death penalty.

 

[Cleon]

I hope the judges who ruled that the State has no obligation to transparency on the subject have trouble sleeping.