Botched autopsy frees Yurko

Did a bit of poking around... I did not find much on PubMed...

but I did find this story:
http://www.metrokc.gov/health/immunization/newsstories.htm#pertussis

and this brochure:
http://search.aap.org/aap/CISPframe.html?url=http://www.cispimmunize.org/fam/facts/FAQ_2.pdf

My son is to old to have been vaccinated with the newer DTaP... and since he had seizures he was not given the DTP, but just the DT. So we had to depend on herd immunity. This was during a time when the county was having a pertussis epidemic. We had to be careful who was allowed around him.

If you have evidence that supports breastfeeding as a way to skip the infant vaccine for pertussis from a reputable source, please share.
 
Hydrogen Cyanide said:
If you have evidence that supports breastfeeding as a way to skip the infant vaccine for pertussis from a reputable source, please share.
Click to expand...
Breastfeeding is never a way to skip any vaccination, even if the mother is immune to her eyeballs. Passive immunity only protects for a very short time, in fact just about the length of time the mother's milk is being ingested. The mother gives her own ready-made antibodies, which does nothing at all to enable the child to produce its own in the future.

The difficulty introduced by maternal immunity is that it's a very good way of preventing a vaccine from working - the passively-acquired antibodies destroy the vaccine and acquired immunity doesn't happen. Bugger.

This is why the timing of puppy and kitten vaccinations is crucial. Too late, and the infant is at risk from disease, but too early and the vaccine may be nixed by maternal antibodies. Hence the whole stuff about isolating puppies until they have had their vaccination course - if you knew they had good maternal immunity that wouldn't be necessary, but of course if you knew they hadn't you'd just vaccinate sooner. This is why guide dog puppies get an extra shot of vaccine, at six weeks, so that those without maternal immunity will be protected and the puppies can be socialised ASAP. However, it's then assumed that that wouldn't have taken, and the usual course administered at 10 and 12 weeks.

I recently advised a client to do the same with her labrador puppies, after having identified the mystery disease that was strking them at about the time they were let out into her stable yard as parvovirus. The timing was just when maternal immunity was probably fading.

Bottom line, maternal immunity is passive, and won't protect you past the time you were given the ready-made antibodies. Vaccination confers active immunity, using pathogen analogues to educate the immune system to produce its own antibodies.

Rolfe.

PS. Would someone mind explaining whether breast milk is a significant source of maternal immunity for human babies? Humans have a haemoendothelial placenta, which allows close enough contact between maternal and foetal circulation for antibodies to cross to the foetus. This is why rhesus babies get sick as foetuses, long before any milk is ingested. In contrast animals all have many more layers of placenta between the foetal and maternal circulations, so that antibodies cannot cross from maternal to foetal circulation. As a result, foetal/maternal antibody incompatibility doesn't show up until after birth (it's called haemolytic anaemia of the newborn), and can be entirely prevented by preventing the neonate from drinking their dam's colostrum. And it's why colostrum is so absolutely vital to baby animals as it's the only way they get passive immunity, but human women can get away with bottle feeding.

So, as I see it, a human infant is likely to have all or at least most of its maternally-derived passive immunity quotient at birth already.
 
Barbrae said:
Does anyone have info on how long the follows vaccines offer protection for. - perussis, polio, smallpox, hepb, measles, rubella?
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I hope a medical source might be able to answer this. You see, I believe that the whole public heapth strategy of vaccinating infants is geared to eliminating the disease from the infant population, the main reservoir, and so protecting the adults in that way.

This doesn't apply to animals, because voluntary vaccination doesn't reach high enough levels to achieve this, which is why regular boosters are recommended for adult dogs, cats and horses.

I believe that a recent outbreak of one of the (human) diseases in question showed significant morbidity among the teenage population, because the disease had managed to establish among the infants (due to the anti-vax scares) and then spread. The epidemiology of the strategy is very interesting, and I'd appreciate a fuller explanation from one of the resident medics.

Rolfe.
 
For the record, it's nice to hear that a six-time violent felon is ostensibly getting away with murder. Always warms my heart. According to ratbags, Yurko pleaded no contest to manslaughter and is out of jail because the 7 years of whatever he was in there was considered enough.

For killing a child.

But anyhoo...

Barb,

Some important things to remember:

-Before the pertussis vaccine, the mortality and morbidity rates for the disease were dramatically higher.

-With any VPD, especially one transmitted in the fashion pertussis is, the possibility of transmission is greater among children than it is by adults. (Children are more likely not to cover their mouths when they cough, etc.)

-There is an adult version of the pertussis vaccine available, just not in the U.S. - although I think there's work towards getting it licensed here. That would solve the "waning immunity after childhood" problem, which is a legitimate concern. (Although natural immunity hasn't proven - over time - to be any better - lasting only 10 years or so as well.)

Problems with the pertussis vaccine aside, the benefits (like with most vaccines) have far outweighed the negatives to this point. When people talk about the "problems" with DTaP's effectiveness, it's like anti-vaxer complaint that a higher percentage of measles cases occur in adults these days than before the vaccine, when the number of measles cases has dropped from 600,000 to less than 100. It may be true, but it's really apropos of nothing.
 
As soon as he was paroled from prison in Ohio he broke his parole and fled to Florida to set up house with Francine Ream, so there is an encouraging possibility that he will soon be back in an Ohio prison to finish the time he owes there.
Click to expand...

Also note that the child Yurko killed was conceived by his girlfriend when he was in jail, so the child he killed was not his.

http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/

He should get more time for breaking his parole. I can't believe that Francine left him alone with a baby when he was already breaking parole and previously being in jail for manslaughter. A baby with problems no less, who would cry a lot.
 
Rolfe said:
Breastfeeding is never a way to skip any vaccination, even if the mother is immune to her eyeballs. Passive immunity only protects for a very short time, in fact just about the length of time the mother's milk is being ingested. The mother gives her own ready-made antibodies, which does nothing at all to enable the child to produce its own in the future.

The difficulty introduced by maternal immunity is that it's a very good way of preventing a vaccine from working - the passively-acquired antibodies destroy the vaccine and acquired immunity doesn't happen. Bugger.
Click to expand...

Wait a second - in the second paragraph you state that if a mother is immune to a disease (has antibodies for a particular virus) and passes along this passive immunity to her child then the vaccine is prevented from working? You then go on to state that passinf along immunity not only occurs during breastfeeding but also through the placenta as well, is this true??

Regarding your first paragraph - I wasn't getting at skipping the vaccine. I was questioning if antibodies for pertussis can provide protection WHILE the infant is being SOLEY breastfed.



HC - when your baby got chicken pox - were you breastfeeding only?
 
sodakboy93 said:
(Although natural immunity hasn't proven - over time - to be any better - lasting only 10 years or so as well.)
Click to expand...

natural immunity only lasts 10 years for pertussis? Can you provide the info you got this from? That surprises me.
 
Barbrae said:
natural immunity only lasts 10 years for pertussis? Can you provide the info you got this from? That surprises me.
Click to expand...

Barbrae,

Why does this surpise you? Just how do you think immunity works? Just how do you think "natural" immunity differs from vaccine-induced?
 
Barbrae said:
natural immunity only lasts 10 years for pertussis? Can you provide the info you got this from? That surprises me.
Click to expand...

This link explains how - that immunity from "natural" pertussis lasts about as long as the immunity from the vaccine. And since the vaccine's immunity lasts about 10 years, it's safe to assume that the natural immunity lasts about that long, too.

http://iai.asm.org/cgi/content/full/69/7/4516
 
sodakboy93 said:
This link explains how - that immunity from "natural" pertussis lasts about as long as the immunity from the vaccine. And since the vaccine's immunity lasts about 10 years, it's safe to assume that the natural immunity lasts about that long, too.

http://iai.asm.org/cgi/content/full/69/7/4516
Click to expand...

I think if we keep scratching this one we're going to find many confused beliefs about the "superiority" of "natural immunity," and the workings of the immune system.

Barbrae, while the conferrance is different, the mechanisms are essentially the same. There should be no surprise that the conferred immunity lasts about the same amount of time.
 
Vaccines. Their purpose is to trigger a natural immune response. They aren't antibiotics or anything. They make the immune system react to the components in the vaccine that the body recognizes as foreign and potentially harmful, the exact same way it would react to the same components of the disease. That's why it works.

It is natural immunity. The vaccine doesn't last long in the body, the vaccine doesn't hang around to protect you from disease. Your body builds its own immunity.

I got some great new links from a christian perspective web site:

http://www.apologia.com/vaccines.htm
 
Rolfe said:
I hope a medical source might be able to answer this. You see, I believe that the whole public heapth strategy of vaccinating infants is geared to eliminating the disease from the infant population, the main reservoir, and so protecting the adults in that way.

This doesn't apply to animals, because voluntary vaccination doesn't reach high enough levels to achieve this, which is why regular boosters are recommended for adult dogs, cats and horses.

I believe that a recent outbreak of one of the (human) diseases in question showed significant morbidity among the teenage population, because the disease had managed to establish among the infants (due to the anti-vax scares) and then spread. The epidemiology of the strategy is very interesting, and I'd appreciate a fuller explanation from one of the resident medics.

Rolfe.
Click to expand...

You are pretty spot on Rolfe-
Getting back to the q about length of vaccine immunity to the diseases in question- (off the top of my head)

Pertussis - 5-10 years. Susceptible adults get insignificant infections. Aim is to protect the vulnerable kids

Polio - about 10 years, maybe longer. Everyone is susceptible irrespective of age.

Smallpox - immunity wanes after about 10-20 years, but may be associated with a degree of minor protection beyond that (milder illnesses). Don't count on it tho. I have been revaccinated some 40 years on. Everyone susceptible

Hep B. Everyone susceptible. Vaccine immunity wanes at 5-10 years, but like smallpox, maybe milder illness results beyond this. Originally we were told vaccine conferred lifelong immunity, then they changed their minds and we go for antHBs level blood tests each 5 years to see if boosters are required.

Measles - everyone susceptible, but often adults get severe illness. Vaccine immunity in theory lifelong, but may be less efficient than natural immunity, as well documented cases in adulthood occur despite vaccination.

Rubella. Interesting. In the past only girls were immunised before going on to secondary school, but too many missed out and so universal childhood immunisation introduced. Long-lived immunity, but possibly as with measles a bit suboptimal. Adults can get nasty rubella - joints particularly.
 
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