Merged Boston Marathon CTs

[Praktik]

Good then we agree. My main point is that our emotional reactions will sometimes cause us to ascribe more consciously negative motivations on the part of our antagonists. Hate the sin not the sinner, amirite?

I will freely admit that another reason for me to think this way is a particularly brutal series of interactions spanning years with a particularly virulent CTer who happened to be a close friend (less so now, though we do ok cause I have relegated all our debates to the digital realm and have left the analog one sheltered from these arguments).

I was incessantly reminded about how my "programming" prevented me from seeing the Truth he was trying to show me - moving into actual allegations of conscious alignment with the NWO.

He kept wanting to fit me into the "enemy" box, kept speculating as to just how bankrupt my inner mind was, rather than engaging on the merits of the claims being discussed.

I resolved I would try to refrain from making the same error myself.

 

[Elizabeth I]

Good then we agree. My main point is that our emotional reactions will sometimes cause us to ascribe more consciously negative motivations on the part of our antagonists. Hate the sin not the sinner, amirite?

It might be a small distinction sometimes - I am more of an outcomes-based value judger myself so am open to judging more by the outcomes rather than the intentions on wide variety of topics (whether we are talking about Iraq War II or CTers poisoning our atmosphere with an anti-rationality toxin or economic policy).

I do think it is important for me to keep my judgement of the individual separate from the outcomes - because if I truly don't like the outcomes, then focusing on the individual in front of me won't do much except maybe help vent some emotional frustration. Focusing on the systemic factors that induce many more individuals to act that way I hate will be more fruitful.

As such I would rather understand the particular faults in logic in the thinking of why the Iraq war would be such a great idea, than spend my time thinking about how little Bush cares for dead Iraqi children. At the end of the day Bush probably is a very loving person and would recoil if he could even understand a tenth of what his administration unleashed on a far corner of the world. The problem isn't Bush, or Cheney, these guys have rationalized all their decisions such they can't even appreciate those horrible costs - the problem is the factory that makes those particular models of leader is set to make more people who rationalize a lot of the same assumptions and would be prone to making similar stupid decisions.

Same with CT theory - I could spend my time thinking about how maybe CTer X is a particularly low form of human life. Or I can spend my time thinking about the vectors that get people to think that way and work against those vectors. Focusing too much on why I dislike them maybe even prevents me from understanding those vectors at all - if these people are motivated by mere "insanity" or "anti-americanism" or _____ - then maybe there is nothing we can do to overcome CT theory and there is nothing we can do to make less of them.

If the vector to CT woo is some broadly stated "insanity" or "hatred" - then aren't we really chafing against human nature and we should all just go home?

I think it's possible - and more satisfying - to do both.

 

[abaddon]

Are you sure? From Wikipedia citing 2 books (unfortunately not available online) "The bloodhound is generally used to follow the individual scent of a fugitive or lost person, taking the scent from a ‘scent article’ – something the quarry is known to have touched, which could be an item of clothing, a car seat, an identified footprint etc.[44][25]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodhound#Human_Trailing

True, but it requires a scent sample from the individual concerned before tracking commences. They didn't have that for either of the suspects.

Mythbusters did an episode on this where both Adam and Jamie tried various methods to literally throw the bloodhound off the scent. In every case, the bloodhound was successful. However, in every case the bloodhound was given a sample of the scent it was expected to follow, Adam's or Jamie's before starting to search.

Consider the scene in Boston. No sample to use for a bloodhound, hundreds or thousands of scent trails, blood on the street. There would be no way to give a bloodhound the necessary cue for a scent to follow, and by the time the cops had enough knowledge to find those, the scent trail would be dead anyway, and one suspect was dead, the other in custody.

ETA: Once the suspects got into cars, all of this becomes moot.

 

[Praktik]

I think it's possible - and more satisfying - to do both.

Ya ok I cant say I haven't slummed it sometimes.. a little snark now and again can help liven things up!

 

[bonzombiekitty]

Mythbusters did an episode on this where both Adam and Jamie tried various methods to literally throw the bloodhound off the scent. In every case, the bloodhound was successful. However, in every case the bloodhound was given a sample of the scent it was expected to follow, Adam's or Jamie's before starting to search.

Consider the scene in Boston. No sample to use for a bloodhound, hundreds or thousands of scent trails, blood on the street. There would be no way to give a bloodhound the necessary cue for a scent to follow, and by the time the cops had enough knowledge to find those, the scent trail would be dead anyway, and one suspect was dead, the other in custody.

Yeah, the important part about the Mythbusters thing is that it was in an unpopulated area. I'm sure it's way easier for a bloodhound to search for an individual when the search is being done in a rural area with few people around to confuse the scent.

 

[abaddon]

Yeah, the important part about the Mythbusters thing is that it was in an unpopulated area. I'm sure it's way easier for a bloodhound to search for an individual when the search is being done in a rural area with few people around to confuse the scent.

They did try it in an urban setting as well. The dog still won.
Once again, the dog was given a sample before starting the search.

 

[eppursimuove]

Conspriacy theorists are just plain idiots. There's no other way to describe them. Idiots.

I don't think it's that simple. Some conspiracy theorists are idiots, sure. But some can be really intelligent, and can have a high IQ too. I personally know of a member of Mensa who buys into practically every conspiracy theory. I believe there are different reasons. I think some CT:s suffer from High-functioning autism.

Infectious stupidity.
Beliefs, like the CT:s about the Boston bombings, spread like a virus. Dan Dennett sums up how it works.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFPtwPgnZ-w

 

[Unabogie]

Some people I know are totally buying into this. They keep talking about the guy in the wheelchair with his legs blown off as being somehow not really injured because he's sitting upright and not on a stretcher. My first thought is that with 180 people injured, they were getting people out of there in any way they could and couldn't use a stretcher for everyone. They also claim he was somehow already an amputee just done up with makeup.

WTF?

 

[Lenbrazil]

Originally Posted by Lenbrazil
Are you sure? From Wikipedia citing 2 books (unfortunately not available online) "The bloodhound is generally used to follow the individual scent of a fugitive or lost person, taking the scent from a ‘scent article’ – something the quarry is known to have touched, which could be an item of clothing, a car seat, an identified footprint etc.[44][25]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodhound#Human_Trailing

True, but it requires a scent sample from the individual concerned before tracking commences. They didn't have that for either of the suspects.

Mythbusters did an episode on this where both Adam and Jamie tried various methods to literally throw the bloodhound off the scent. In every case, the bloodhound was successful. However, in every case the bloodhound was given a sample of the scent it was expected to follow, Adam's or Jamie's before starting to search.

Consider the scene in Boston. No sample to use for a bloodhound, hundreds or thousands of scent trails, blood on the street. There would be no way to give a bloodhound the necessary cue for a scent to follow, and by the time the cops had enough knowledge to find those, the scent trail would be dead anyway, and one suspect was dead, the other in custody.

ETA: Once the suspects got into cars, all of this becomes moot.

Yeah but one of the three "scent article(s)" cited by Wikipedia is "a car seat" he was found 0.8 mile drive from the shootout and presumably ditched the SUV in between. He would have been the last driver of the car. Also they presumably got items that belonged to him from the apartment and his dorm room.

The (sub)urban setting could have been an issue from Mythbusters:

You can trick a trained bloodhound by traveling through an urban environment.
PLAUSIBLE
The bloodhound was overwhelmed by the multitude of distracting smells in the city. It did find Adam after 90 minutes, but did not actually follow his trail. The handler noted that a bloodhound with experience in cities could do better.​

http://mythbustersresults.com/episode74

From "BLOODHOUNDS INCORPORATED":

"However, in very complicated trailing situations such as urban city environments, bloodhounds have a 25% find rate."

http://www.bloodhoundsincorporated.com/what_can_bloodhounds_do_for.html

OTOH:

Hyler said all the dogs are equal in tracking ability, but some are better suited for certain environments than others.

“Each one’s like a person,” he said. “Some do better in urban environments versus suburban or around other dogs. Some you want to have strictly in the woods. We know if we get a call in downtown Aiken with a bank robbery, our guys are trained to know which dogs are better suited for that atmosphere.”​

"Bloodhounds part of law enforcement family" Aiken Standard
http://www.aikenstandard.com/article/20130202/AIK0101/130209944/0/AIK0405


"Downtown Aiken" is about as urban as that part of Watertown

 

[Scotty Ladouche]

somehow not really injured because he's sitting upright and not on a stretcher. My first thought is that with 180 people injured, they were getting people out of there in any way they could and couldn't use a stretcher for everyone.

Even though I haven't ran a race in many years, I am guessing it is standard practice to have a few wheelchairs standing by at the finish line, many people can barely stand at the end of a race, and a few are in medical distress. In the case of the double amputee you refer to, they grabbed the closest thing they could to help transfer him to an ambulance, instead of waiting for the EMT and stretcher to come to them.

 

[Nick Terry]

I think some CT:s suffer from High-functioning autism.

Oh noes, vaccines!

 

[abaddon]

Some people I know are totally buying into this. They keep talking about the guy in the wheelchair with his legs blown off as being somehow not really injured because he's sitting upright and not on a stretcher. My first thought is that with 180 people injured, they were getting people out of there in any way they could and couldn't use a stretcher for everyone. They also claim he was somehow already an amputee just done up with makeup.

WTF?

It's self debunking. The guy in question is Nick Vogt, who had both legs blown off by an IED above the knee, severing both femoral arteries. He survived, and did not bleed out.

Jeff Bauman had a similar injury, but below the knee, hence not severing any femoral artery.

The CT loons would have you believe that Bauman should have bled out in seconds without femoral artery severance, yet present a soldier who did have femoral severance and survived is the "actor" in the Boston bombings.

 

[spin0]

One more question, why weren't K-9 units used to find Jahar after the shootout? Or for some reason were they unable to follow his secent?

Reportedly there were dogs but the track was lost: http://www.kare11.com/news/article/...w-much-ammunition-Boston-bombing-suspects-had

As SWAT teams conducted the grid search the next day, they found blood and urine behind a house, but the police dogs didn't hit on anything after that.

 

[abaddon]

<snip for brevity>

You are still left with the fact that by the time that a valid sample could be made available, events had moved on, rendering any bloodhound irrelevant.

Suspect #1 was killed in a shootout involving 200+ bullets, being run over by his brother and attempting to detonate a strap on bomb.

Suspect #2 scarpered.

At best, you could ask, "Could a bloodhound have tracked down suspect #2?" Possibly, but suspect #2 was travelling by car, and holed up outside the cordon by a block. Any deployed dogs would be inside the cordon. Once the guy called in the suspect in his boat, bloodhounds once again became moot.

 

[Biscuit]

Some people I know are totally buying into this. They keep talking about the guy in the wheelchair with his legs blown off as being somehow not really injured because he's sitting upright and not on a stretcher. My first thought is that with 180 people injured, they were getting people out of there in any way they could and couldn't use a stretcher for everyone. They also claim he was somehow already an amputee just done up with makeup.

WTF?

My favorite part of the still photograph of the poor guy with his legs blown off is that to the CTers the guy doesn't appear to be in shock...

Of course "shock" to them means wiggling and screaming and such which makes the still photography aspect even funnier.

ETA: I would say that person is exhibiting classic symptoms of shock.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Boston Bombing – DHS Contracted Security out to Israelis
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/04/24/boston-bombing-dhs-contracted-security-out-to-israelis/

http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-con...unications_Van-600-e1366824234898-320x263.jpg

Craft Contractors with their domed vehicle for scanning crowds for guns, a 20 year old deployed technology. How did they miss kettle bombs? What do you think?

At Veterans Today we had our counter terror crew going over high resolution photos being sent in and closely reviewed not only for what was to seen, which smart cadets could do, but what was not there, which often tells you a lot more about who is really behind a terror attack.

What we quickly observed was security breach after security breach, like all the doors had been left open. We saw Israeli operational profiles all over the place, many with ear buds getting feeds from higher up spotters who were watching where the cops and bomb dogs were, and where they were not.

But in all of the photos we have seen so far there was no visible uniform police presence in this vulnerable area, just two obvious kind of undercover cops or contractors.

Security protocol would usually have these areas discreetly patrolled by plain clothes officers in ear plug communication with overhead spotters guiding them toward anyone looking suspicious. We have long had special equipment that such undercover cops can carry that can screen what people have in their bags simply be standing next to them.

http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/8VF5oh0-320x240.jpg

Craft Security contract – left photo shows him standing 15 feet to the left of where the first bomb went off, after he and his parnter had crossed the street.

 

[Tinfoil Hater]

My point is that if they were able to see that an attack actually happened, with legitimate victims, that they would display the amount of empathy we would deem sufficient to avoid our castigation.

Since we are living in two worlds with different sets of facts they can appear "insane" (certainly) and like "scum", but this is a product of the two different worlds with different sets of facts, NOT a product of them actually feeling conscious evil.

But - maybe this is such an emotional issue for you that you can't help but resort to slurs which hey, are totally an understandable reaction, but its more of an emotional one, and not one which I think gets us any closer to understanding what makes them tick.

Gibberish. People can have their own opinions- but not their own facts. People were brutally murdered on 9/11, in Sandy hook and at the Boston marathon. The way the conspiracy theorists often try to ignore or deny the existence of the victims, they are the same ilk as Holocaust deniers. They ARE scum.

Gee, why would it be an emotional issue for me? Perhaps because I care that people were murdered???

 

[Azrael 5]

Some nut on cluesforum has taken time from original Boston MAssacre to Marathon attack and arrived at 911

Boston 'massacre' dates

From and including: Monday, March 5, 1770
To, but not including : Monday, April 15, 2013

It is 88,795 days from the start date to the end date, but not including the end date

Or 243 years, 1 month, 10 days excluding the end date

(2+4+3)= 9 & 1+10=11
9/11

If that isnt proof I'll eat my[tinfoil] hat!

 

[abaddon]

My favorite part of the still photograph of the poor guy with his legs blown off is that to the CTers the guy doesn't appear to be in shock...

Of course "shock" to them means wiggling and screaming and such which makes the still photography aspect even funnier.

ETA: I would say that person is exhibiting classic symptoms of shock.

Until you see actual trauma, shock and death in real life, you can have no opinion.

I agree. The CT yahoos have never seen it. I have. It is not pretty. It is not like what the basement dwellers think it is like based on their Hollywood expectations.

 

[Azrael 5]

Some comments by CTsers on cluesforum(hate to repeat my hate for that place)are evil,photos of the dead young woman being ridiculed.
You should be able to have such sites shut down.