Bolivia crumbles

[arcticpenguin]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/americas/10/14/bolivia.reut/index.html

LA PAZ, Bolivia (Reuters) -- Dozens of tanks ringed Bolivia's presidential palace on Tuesday to shield the besieged government from an expected worsening of violence after weeks of a popular revolt that has killed at least 52 people.

Deeply disliked President Gonzalo Sanchez de Lozada, who has refused to step down as the death toll spirals higher, met with his political allies to shore up his crumbling support. Meanwhile, indigenous and labor leaders called for more roadblocks to protest his pro-U.S., free-market policies.

The mountain capital of La Paz has been under siege for weeks, paralyzed by looting, food shortages and gun battles between protesters and police that killed an estimated 14 people on Monday, according to a local human rights group.

Is the U.S. too distracted by Iraq to pay attention to this happening in our own hemisphere?

 

[Cleon]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/americas/10/14/bolivia.reut/index.html

Is the U.S. too distracted by Iraq to pay attention to this happening in our own hemisphere?

This has been going on for a longer time than CNN's been reporting on it. When I was in Colombia last December, the revolt in Bolivia was the talk of the town (to say nothing of Venezuela).

But you're right, it's weird...Twenty years ago the US would've installed a military dictatorship by now.

 

[arcticpenguin]

I hope we wouldn't go that route again; it's unseemly for a democracy to be installing dictatorships elsewhere. It sounds like the current leader in Bolivia is pro-U.S. I don't know much about what is going wrong there or why he is now so unpopular.

 

[Cleon]

I hope we wouldn't go that route again; it's unseemly for a democracy to be installing dictatorships elsewhere. It sounds like the current leader in Bolivia is pro-U.S. I don't know much about what is going wrong there or why he is now so unpopular.

Well, essentially he's selling off the country to the US. Bolivia, like much of South America, has a history of being hyper-exploited by the US without seeing any real benefit from it. Needless to say, Bolivians aren't real anxious to return to that situation.

 

[Malachi151]

I hope we wouldn't go that route again; it's unseemly for a democracy to be installing dictatorships elsewhere. It sounds like the current leader in Bolivia is pro-U.S. I don't know much about what is going wrong there or why he is now so unpopular.

Here you go, you need this history first:

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/KillingHope_page.html

The US has essentially installed puppet dictators in about half of the South Americna countries over the past 50 years and comepletely abused the entire contenent.

That's why those groups have been kidnapping Americans and holding them hotage for the past 10 years, etc.

Texaco, Exxon, Coka-Cola, etc have raped and pillaged the place for decadeds, thus the outrage and protest.

Fort Benning, the "School of the America's", is considered by many to be the largest terrotist tranning ground in the world and it essentially trains South Americans to go back to South America and take action in favor of the US, like killing union leaders, killing protestors, supporting miitary dictatorships, assissnating democratically elected leaders, etc.

The US has been running amuck in SA ever since WWII when we helped all the former Nazi war criminals relocate down there. We helped turn South America into Little Germany and the people are tired of it.

South Americans and Mexicans are the most serious protestors in the world at this point, those guys DO NOT play. They have been giving Fox a hard time in Mexico too. Fox was trying to appropriate land from famrers without paying them for it to sell it to American airline companies to build airports on. They kidnapped a bunch of people and rioted all over the place and marched on some cities, the Machette Rbellion I think it was called.

Yeah, pretty much people South of the boarder hate American policy like uhh.. real bad. And they all support each other too, like if there is a protest in Mexico people will come from South America to join it, if there is a protest in Venezuela people come from Bolivia, Costa Rica, Honduras, etc to support it and so on. We have pretty much managed to unite all of South America agaisnt us, it took 50 years but it was finally managed.

Of course you never hear about any of this in the news.....

 

[Aoidoi]

Ah heck, I'm avoiding work, I'll bite (btw, what's up with your spelling, M? You've got typos in almost every sentence of this one):

The US has essentially installed puppet dictators in about half of the South Americna countries over the past 50 years and comepletely abused the entire contenent.

That's nice. The point is that we're not doing it NOW. Why not? What's going on in BOLIVIA right now and why. You're like a shotgun at long range here. You touch on the subject but hit everything else in the general vicinity too.

That's why those groups have been kidnapping Americans and holding them hotage for the past 10 years, etc.

Is that why they're regularly kidnapping Europeans, locals, and anyone else they can get a ransom out of?

Texaco, Exxon, Coka-Cola, etc have raped and pillaged the place for decadeds, thus the outrage and protest.

Texaco and Exxon are Evil Oil Companies (tm) and therefore responsible for everyone's problems everywhere, but Coca Cola? Aside from making billions selling carbonated sugar water I don't recall them raping or pillaging a whole lot.

Fort Benning, the "School of the America's", is considered by many to be the largest terrotist tranning ground in the world and it essentially trains South Americans to go back to South America and take action in favor of the US, like killing union leaders, killing protestors, supporting miitary dictatorships, assissnating democratically elected leaders, etc.

... how to set up field hospitals, secure drinking water, deal with military logistics. We had a whole thread about this that you apparently didn't pay any attention to at all.

The US has been running amuck in SA ever since WWII when we helped all the former Nazi war criminals relocate down there. We helped turn South America into Little Germany and the people are tired of it.

Um, evidence? Why did the US help relocate war criminals, weren't they capable of relocating themselves? If we wanted the war criminals we just put them in NASA, why bother to stick them in another country? Need Nazis, employ them, don't need Nazis, charge them with war crimes and win PR points for defeating the evil. Why would we bother relocating them for no good reason? Just the US being Eeeevil (tm)? Or were the Oil Companies involved?

South Americans and Mexicans are the most serious protestors in the world at this point, those guys DO NOT play.

I'm a little hazy on what you mean, but I'd argue the "protestors" with the tendency to put on high explosive fashions to make their point qualify as the "most serious."

They have been giving Fox a hard time in Mexico too. Fox was trying to appropriate land from famrers without paying them for it to sell it to American airline companies to build airports on.

Huh, they tried that here in Peotone (sp?), never did go through.

They kidnapped a bunch of people and rioted all over the place and marched on some cities, the Machette Rbellion I think it was called.

Hmmm... new one on me. Fox has been pres for what, 5 years? Feel free to provide more info on this one... especially how it has anything to do with Bolivia.

Yeah, pretty much people South of the boarder hate American policy like uhh.. real bad.

Your eloquence astounds. But given that you believe everyone everywhere hates the US, is this news?

And they all support each other too, like if there is a protest in Mexico people will come from South America to join it, if there is a protest in Venezuela people come from Bolivia, Costa Rica, Honduras, etc to support it and so on. We have pretty much managed to unite all of South America agaisnt us, it took 50 years but it was finally managed.

Well, you know, if at first you don't succeed... I am a bit hazy on how the international nature of modern protests demonstrates this, but I'm sure you'll have a lengthy response to tell me how everyone else has it wrong and you are the only one who sees the light.

Of course you never hear about any of this in the news.....

Not even sure what that means. Do US news orgs underreport international issues? Rather clearly, but then there are better than 180 nations to keep track of, and most of the US just doesn't care a whole lot. Are you once again using the apathy of the US public about foreign affairs as evidence of a conspiracy?

 

[Cleon]

Texaco and Exxon are Evil Oil Companies (tm) and therefore responsible for everyone's problems everywhere, but Coca Cola? Aside from making billions selling carbonated sugar water I don't recall them raping or pillaging a whole lot.

Coca-Cola is plenty evil. What they've taken to doing in Colombia is using right-wing paramilitaries to "disrupt" union activities. And when I say "disrupt," I mean, they barge onto the plant floor and shoot union activists right there.

(Spanish)
http://www.sinaltrainal.org/
http://www.colombiasolidarity.org

(You can just google for "Sinaltrainal," which is the name of the union.)

 

[Aoidoi]

Coca-Cola is plenty evil. What they've taken to doing in Colombia is using right-wing paramilitaries to "disrupt" union activities. And when I say "disrupt," I mean, they barge onto the plant floor and shoot union activists right there.

Interesting! Haven't heard about it and am not even sure why Coca Cola would be in Columbia (well, except to bottle and sell their kind of coke there, I guess). So far as I know coke is produced regionally and distributed, dunno why they'd resort to violence in SA.

But I'm afraid we're derailing the thread from Bolivia's problems.

 

[Malachi151]

Interesting! Haven't heard about it and am not even sure why Coca Cola would be in Columbia (well, except to bottle and sell their kind of coke there, I guess). So far as I know coke is produced regionally and distributed, dunno why they'd resort to violence in SA.

But I'm afraid we're derailing the thread from Bolivia's problems.

Not really, because as I said, in South America there is a strong international coalition of interests. The "progressive" "laboring classes" of South America are united in action and information. They view thier struggle against America as a struggle that crosses boudaries and support each other. There is, and has been an unified movement in South to get America out of their affairs. This has been going on for 50 years as I said, before America had the Cold War as its excuse, but that no longer applies so this will be revealed for what it really is, savage imperailism.

Mark my word, over the next 5 years you are going to hear more and more about South American anti-Americanism. Now that the Cold War is over those guys are going to get very serious.

YOu have to fugure that over the past few decades the US has been responsible for the deaths of millions of South Americans, the destruction of billions of dollars of property and and the overthrow of a large numbr of governments. People there hate us for good reason.

 

[Aoidoi]

Mark my word, over the next 5 years you are going to hear more and more about South American anti-Americanism. Now that the Cold War is over those guys are going to get very serious.

I'll be lucky to remember this comment tomorrow, much less in 5 years. btw, cold war's been over for a decade, what's the holdup? And why does this sound to me like the same way the Arabic states in the ME are "united" against the US (i.e. they all hate us, but are perfectly willing to screw each other over for any advantage).

YOu have to fugure that over the past few decades the US has been responsible for the deaths of millions of South Americans, the destruction of billions of dollars of property and and the overthrow of a large numbr of governments. People there hate us for good reason.

Just curious, do you speak from any sort of experience? I have no idea what the general sentiment in SA is. Cleon seems to have some first hand knowledge, but I can't think of a single issue which I've read your comments on which I would believe on your say-so. Given that the US has apparently ceased the practice of overthrowing unfriendly SA governments I would think (though I freely admit this could be wrong) that antipathy towards the US would decrease over time. Maybe the war on drugs and corporate misdeeds are undermining that? Is the US currently up to anything else that is pissing people off down there?

 

[Luciana]

Not really, because as I said, in South America there is a strong international coalition of interests. The "progressive" "laboring classes" of South America are united in action and information. They view thier struggle against America as a struggle that crosses boudaries and support each other. There is, and has been an unified movement in South to get America out of their affairs. This has been going on for 50 years as I said, before America had the Cold War as its excuse, but that no longer applies so this will be revealed for what it really is, savage imperailism.

looks around herself

Where did you get that from??

You're being paranoid. When was the last time there was a terrorist attack targeting Americans or American institutions? There were riots in Argentina in which they raided American banks, but they did that to banks from all nationalities, including Spanish.

Chileans should be pretty much in love with Americans right now.

I seriously doubt that the Bolivian protestors created havoc just because of the president's intentions of selling gas to the US. There were many protests against Brazil for the same reason, in the early nineties. If Sanchez is under so much trouble, I can bet there must be plenty of other reasons.

Mark my word, over the next 5 years you are going to hear more and more about South American anti-Americanism. Now that the Cold War is over those guys are going to get very serious.

I don't see that happening anytime in the near future. I fail to see any initiative in this regard.

The Brazilian radical left has always been strongly anti-American. But those guys are losers who prey on young college students, and their political power is, at this point - and for the record, our president is a leftist - nill. They're pathetic for so many other reasons, that their anti-Americanism meets deaf ears from the general populace.

YOu have to fugure that over the past few decades the US has been responsible for the deaths of millions of South Americans, the destruction of billions of dollars of property and and the overthrow of a large numbr of governments. People there hate us for good reason.

MILLIONS??? All of the South American dictatorships, combined, did not kill not even a million. And although I concede that the American government was directly and indirectly involved with the established of many dictatorships, you can be sure that the people blame mostly their own politicians. In countries where torture was common practice, national hands were employed, not American's. That makes an impression in the population.

 

[a_unique_person]

Interesting! Haven't heard about it and am not even sure why Coca Cola would be in Columbia (well, except to bottle and sell their kind of coke there, I guess). So far as I know coke is produced regionally and distributed, dunno why they'd resort to violence in SA.

But I'm afraid we're derailing the thread from Bolivia's problems.

This is the problem with much of the West. You assume that everything that is reported is all that needs to be reported.

In Australia, the satire TV Show CNNNN uses the phrase "We provide, you Believe".

 

[a_unique_person]

looks around herself

Where did you get that from??

You're being paranoid. When was the last time there was a terrorist attack targeting Americans or American institutions? There were riots in Argentina in which they raided American banks, but they did that to banks from all nationalities, including Spanish.

Chileans should be pretty much in love with Americans right now.

I find it an interesting exericse to compare Australia to South American countries. At the turn of last century, they were both facing optimistic futures. For some reason, the political instability of South America has caused much misery and death. In Australia, there were also moves to have a coup by the right wing during the Great Depression. Ex-soldiers were training and organised. They asked the leader of the armed forces, General Monash, to lead the coup. (For my friends here, Monash was a Jew. Australia owes him a great deal http://www.jwv.org/communication/fall02art02.html http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2003/s937662.htm). He refused. If he had accepted their offer, I don't think there is much doubt he would have been the leader of Australia.

It was this crucial difference that saved Australia. It's armed forces have never launched a coup. Australia is not divided by the bitterness that such a legacy creates.

I think you will find that many Chileans have not forgotten or forgiven the coup that was backed by the US. Many innocents died.