Merged Bloom Box fuel cell system

[ksbluesfan]

On the CBS news magazine show 60 Minutes, they had a segment on Bloom Box. K.R. Sridhar, co-founder and chief executive of Bloom Energy, developed a device for NASA that would use solar power and Martian water to drive a reactor cell that generated oxygen to breathe and hydrogen to power vehicles. The device is also reversible, feeding oxygen and fuel (hydrogen) into the cell to generate electricity.

Is anybody familiar with this? If it is legit, it could change the world.

More info here:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/02/18/60minutes/main6221135.shtml

http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/dec2009/gb2009127_746740.htm

 

[PixyMisa]

As far as I can see, they're perfectly legit. What they're not (yet) is economically viable. All the current customers are in California because the boxes only make financial sense with the tax credits available there.

 

[Pantaz]

... it could change the world.

How so?

 

[technoextreme]

As far as I can see, they're perfectly legit.

It was completely devoid of any information to make that distinction. If you can be so kindly name the type of fuel cell that they developed.

 

[Olowkow]

I'm skeptical, but I'm not sure exactly why. "Magic ink" on a ceramic substrate? The fuel cells I am familiar with use graphite. "Run on solar"? "Yes". Huh? Ok, runs on hydrogen that is produced from water, perhaps, by solar provided power for electrolysis. But, that statement was just odd. "Produces hydrogen"? How do you store it?

It is difficult to imagine getting 50 amps or so out of a 6" cube of the stuff. $3000 for a home unit? The inverter alone will cost $1000 or so. They still are burning fossil fuel, methane, so what is the breakthrough? Lots of fuel cells being manufactured. What do their patents claim?

I can't find any figures on the efficiency. Their website is pure hype. Red flag for me. On the other hand, these units are apparently working at Google, etc.

I wish they had hired an expert to interview this guy, instead of a reporter who didn't bother to do any homework.

 

[technoextreme]

I'm skeptical, but I'm not sure exactly why. "Magic ink" on a ceramic substrate? The fuel cells I am familiar with use graphite. "Run on solar"? "Yes". Huh? Ok, runs on hydrogen that is produced from water, perhaps, by solar provided power for electrolysis. But, that statement was just odd. "Produces hydrogen"? How do you store it?

Most of those questions have reasonable answers.

 

[gfunkusarelius]

i would say it was encouraging that they had these boxes being used by actual companies, but it is a bit disheartening that they are doing this media hype before going public. immediately makes me suspicious that, even in they have a promising product, they are probably being pressured to make some of the investment back by going public. how do we really know what those powerplants are doing at google. maybe it is an elaborate stretch on reality to convince the public of the viability?
but like was said, the bottom line is they didn't give enough info to really tell.

 

[Olowkow]

Their fuel cell is apparently the SOFC:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_oxide_fuel_cell

 

[ksbluesfan]

How so?

If I understand it correctly, it could provide cheaper energy and cause less pollution. But I've always been a drama queen, so when it comes to "change the world", YMMV.

 

[portlandatheist]

I also saw the segment. If memory serves me correctly, they also claimed that you could get twice the amount of electricity from the fuel cell using natural gas as you could with natural gas power plant. I find that difficult to believe. I always thought that Natural Gas power plants were already pretty efficient and that transmission losses weren't that substantial. In other words, I only see this as being useful for niche markets such as powering remote outposts that have access to natural gas but do not have access to the grid.

 

[Dorian Gray]

Okay, is this 'Bloom Box' gonna work, or is it like the rest?

http://www.nydailynews.com/tech_gui...sridhar_makes_big_promise_with_bloom_box.html

It's a box that generates electricity from fuel cells, and the maker wants to have it in homes in 5-10 years. Originally NASA wanted it to make oxygen for astronauts, but they changed their minds like fickle Gubmint people do sometimes, so Bloom Energy modified it to produce energy.

Note, I'm (and they're) not claiming it's perpetual motion or something. Just an alternate way of generating electricity for your house.

 

[Sunsneezer]

Well it's not magic... it still needs a fuel and oxygen intake, as well as plates with a secret double-coating that I assume are going to need periodical replacing.

 

[ben m]

These things are all about economics. I have no reason to doubt that they can produce electricity from a fuel cell; I have no reason to doubt that they can do so more efficiently than a gas-turbine power plant can do it.

The questions are : how much does your box cost to buy, how long do the membranes last, and how many years do I have to run it before it pays for itself (including financing and maintenance)? It's really hard to know the answer to that question when you're in the talking-to-venture-capitalists stage---anyone know what they're claiming to do? Can they outcompete $0.10/kWh electricity right now? Could they outcompete $0.1 + $0.003/kWh or whatever it would be under cap-and-trade?

 

[Modified]

I also saw the segment. If memory serves me correctly, they also claimed that you could get twice the amount of electricity from the fuel cell using natural gas as you could with natural gas power plant. I find that difficult to believe. I always thought that Natural Gas power plants were already pretty efficient and that transmission losses weren't that substantial. In other words, I only see this as being useful for niche markets such as powering remote outposts that have access to natural gas but do not have access to the grid.

Results of a quick web search suggest that the best existing natural-gas SOFC efficiencies are about 10% higher than the best natural gas power plant efficiencies, but that an SOFC/gas turbine hybrid could be about 50% more efficient. If waste heat could be used directly, then total efficiency would be about twice as high.

For small-scale systems, the fuel cell efficiency would probably be twice as high as a simple natural gas generator.

 

[PixyMisa]

It was completely devoid of any information to make that distinction.

eBay have been running several of them for the past 5 months. I think they might have noticed by now if they didn't actually work.

 

[portlandatheist]

Results of a quick web search suggest that the best existing natural-gas SOFC efficiencies are about 10% higher than the best natural gas power plant efficiencies, but that an SOFC/gas turbine hybrid could be about 50% more efficient. If waste heat could be used directly, then total efficiency would be about twice as high.

For small-scale systems, the fuel cell efficiency would probably be twice as high as a simple natural gas generator.

Well, since the Bloom boxes don't capture waste heat that I'm aware of, these devices are only marginally more efficient than off the grid power.
Seems like an over hype to me, another use for these may be for companies that especially want to use natural gas or methane rather than the grid power because the grid power is too "dirty" either because its mostly coal powered or if it was nuclear and the company had an antinuclear stance.

 

[Modified]

Well, since the Bloom boxes don't capture waste heat that I'm aware of, these devices are only marginally more efficient than off the grid power.
Seems like an over hype to me, another use for these may be for companies that especially want to use natural gas or methane rather than the grid power because the grid power is too "dirty" either because its mostly coal powered or if it was nuclear and the company had an antinuclear stance.

They don't have to capture waste heat, it's in the exhaust gas. It would be silly not to use it given the cost-to-benefit of doing so.

Given current residential gas and electricity prices in my city, a 50% efficient SOFC would save about half of my electricity costs, or $1000 per year. So if they really could get the cost down to $3000, it would be well worth it. Waste heat would be enough to provide hot water and keep my pool warm all winter, which the solar I use now can't do December to March. It would also have saved me the cost of the solar installation, about $1000 for parts and $2000 for labor (I got used panels free on Craigslist and used my own labor, but for most people a solar pool installation is at least $3000). Of course, if lots of people had these, natural gas prices would shoot up, and I doubt they will really get the price that low, but you never know.

 

[ben m]

Results of a quick web search suggest that the best existing natural-gas SOFC efficiencies are about 10% higher than the best natural gas power plant efficiencies, but that an SOFC/gas turbine hybrid could be about 50% more efficient. If waste heat could be used directly, then total efficiency would be about twice as high.

For small-scale systems, the fuel cell efficiency would probably be twice as high as a simple natural gas generator.

Does that 10% include transmission losses?

Once you have a power unit that's small enough to have on-site at your heated factory or house, it's really really easy to use the waste heat---you presumably already have a boiler somewhere feeding your building radiators, you just plug this box into the same circuit. (Keep in mind that a huge fraction---what, 30%?---of US energy is for keeping building interiors warm.) If you need AC, you need to replace your mechanical chiller outright with an evaporative one, which is likely to make sense for an IT center but not for a homeowner.

In a nutshell, making an affordable combined-heat-and-power box is a big big big win on overall fuel efficiency even if the electricity-generation efficiency is nothing to write home about.

 

[TheDaver]

It’s a couple of old concepts – the “electrolysis cell” and the “hydrogen fuel cell” with a lot of BS claims of novelty and capability.

I couldn’t help but roll my eyes when they mentioned using them on Mars to make fuel and breathable oxygen – the problem is, it would make them in a stoichiometric ratio, meaning that there would only be enough oxygen to react the hydrogen with, and nothing left to breathe.

 

[r-j]

Would one these work when the power goes out? (I have natural gas, and while the gas works when the power doesn't, you need power to run the furnace fan.)