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Blended gold-fiat $ monetary system?

Do you know more about money and economy than Ron Paul does? If you do, you should email him and set him straight.

It´s not his responsibility, or mine, to set every deluded nutter straight. If Mr Paul wishes to know anything about money, or economics in general, he is free to look it up in any of a large number of textbooks.

However, the problem with Mr Paul, and Tippit, and others of their ilk, is that they do not want to know. They want their own claptrap to be true.
 
The 95% reduction in purchasing power of the dollar since the inception of the Federal Reserve is the result of monetary inflation. The phony government inflation stats don't consider asset inflation, and yet, massive inflation we have.

Can you name a single person that uses his 1912 dollars to make purchases today? Because that is one old mattress. Talk about old money.
 
I always find these people hilarious when talking about "massive inflation" and the Fed.

As if, somehow, the years where we had inflation, followed by deflation, followed by stagnation were somehow better all because we didn't have the Fed.

It's mind-boggling.
 
I always find these people hilarious when talking about "massive inflation" and the Fed.

As if, somehow, the years where we had inflation, followed by deflation, followed by stagnation were somehow better all because we didn't have the Fed.

It's mind-boggling.

There is something to your position, but consider that the German BundesBank ,in it's post 1948 inception had been very inflation-phobic, and from 1948 to the 1999 switch to the euro, their exchange rate went from 4.2 DM/$ in 1948 to 1.6 DM/$ in 1999. So the German central bank policy resulted in 265% less inflation over 50 years, or almost exactly 2% less inflation per year. That's a huge difference; it's as if the dollar was still worth 30% of it's 1913 value instead of 5% (factor of 6 roughly). So the Fed inflation policy is in line for some criticism.

Milton Friedman suggested replacing the Federal board with a computer program and publishing it's detailed workings. Basically an econometric model that estimates GDP growth and adjusts currency to match. So it is not "crazy" as some here suggest to abolish the Fed board of governors, however we still need a means of controlling currency supply. What Friedman meant of course is that the legit role of the central bank is managing the currency supply, but the remainder of their activities and guesswork is at best useless on average,and at worst harmful.

I think there is a coherent argument in favor or running a modest and controlled inflation rate (that is producing currency at a rate slightly above GDP growth), however that is a topic for another thread.

The BundesBank was the first fully independent central bank however there are relatively few other such examples and there are some controlled central banks that seem to operate quite well.

So what you find "mind boggling" I find an arguable point. There certainly were banking crises before the inception of the US Federal reserve in 1913, in fact it was formed in response to these. Prior to the Federal reserve we had the so called Independent Treasury era, but in that case "independent" was a misnomer - it was a political creation with constantly changing rules imposed by government - fraught with problems both due to political meddling and the external realities. However I see little evidence that the US Fed has been effective in eliminating crises, but rather is *seems* to create a greater opportunity for systemic crises rather than regional or specific crises. There is probably insufficient evidence to make a strong argument either way, but clearly a semi-independent Central Bank isn't any sort of ZauberBank solution to every problem.

What is clear is that the relative independence of the Fed has spared it the sort of political hacking that, for example imposed on FannieMae, and also the undue influence that FannieMae&FreddieMAC has had by political contribution (tribute). In that sense at least Ron Paul is dead-wrong. US Congress is not sufficiently motivated by its constituents wishes/needs to allow it to control the Central Bank directly (if at all). I would feel somewhat differently about the Canadian Parliment auditing the Bank of Canada for example, since there is a good history of fiscal responsibility and the worst political scandals in Canadian history sound like the sort of thing half the US Congress does before lunchtime.
 
Currency is a store of value, not a value in itself

Granted I haven't read every post, so I may be repeating earlier points. Apologies if so.

In the last few posts some seem to feel a currency must have an intrinsic value (eg. gold) in order to retain its stored value. This is a common misconception on a few levels.

A currency makes non-barter trade possible by standing in for a basket of goods; iow it's a store of value. Instead of trying to figure out the price of chickens in cords of wood, a currency allows all goods to be translated into a numerical value. That's all, there is nothing magical about the currency itself. Historical currencies have by convention been anything rare and hard to counterfeit or gain via a means other than earning it via trade or wages, including smooth rocks and seashells (usually originating from far away).

But because early currencies, including some in the form of paper, were easy to copy, or it was easy to gain access to more currency by finding a good rock or seashell source, a rare good such as gold or silver, that was at the same time easy to carry, was used as a currency. But this is an example of a good being used as the currency for convenience sake, not because it was a natural or superior store of value.

To take a modern example, when your paycheck is automatically credited to your bank account, and you then make a purchase with a debit card, you are employing a digital store of value, not even a physical currency. What you want to avoid is the ability to add/subtract to digital stores by hacking an account or faking a payment card, but if done right, the digital value storage works fine. In fact, if we had no need for cash, there would be less of a tendency to view things such as gold as natural currencies.

Finally, the reason a physical good such as gold or silver, gems or whatnot, are bad as currencies is that precisely because they are goods, the supply of currency is tied to the supply of goods. Thus, when gold supply growth is low, trade cannot increase at the rate it might otherwise. Similarly, those in ownership of gold mines have an unfair advantage.

If you cannot grasp this easily, just do a thought experiment of two villages undertaking trade with a fixed amount of gold. Now add a third village, without adding gold, and figure what happens to the price of goods and if trade expands easily or not. Now do the same experiment with an expansion of paper or digital money that is in ratio to the addition of the third village, and consider prices and growth.

The results explain why I do not believe in goods such as gold as money stores, and why I do believe in tying monetary growth to trade and GDP growth, to avoid inflation and deflationary pressures.
 
There is something to your position, but consider that the German BundesBank ,in it's post 1948 inception had been very inflation-phobic, and from 1948 to the 1999 switch to the euro, their exchange rate went from 4.2 DM/$ in 1948 to 1.6 DM/$ in 1999. So the German central bank policy resulted in 265% less inflation over 50 years, or almost exactly 2% less inflation per year. That's a huge difference; it's as if the dollar was still worth 30% of it's 1913 value instead of 5% (factor of 6 roughly). So the Fed inflation policy is in line for some criticism.

Only if you consider low inflation to be the single overarching good. How did the German economy as a whole do over that period -- and how much of the initial growth in the 1950s was fueled by American (Marshall plan) investments fueled by American dollars on the Fed's watch?

Remember that the American dollar has basically been the world's reserve currency for the entire period you describe; German didn't need to inflate its money supply since people could and did increase production and expect to be paid in US dollars if they were trading on the world market (as of course everyone does). The US doesn't have that luxury. Most Americans like the advantages of being stockbrokers and bankers to the world, but it does have its downsides as well; this is one of them.
 
Only if you consider low inflation to be the single overarching good. How did the German economy as a whole do over that period -- and how much of the initial growth in the 1950s was fueled by American (Marshall plan) investments fueled by American dollars on the Fed's watch?

You are certainly master of the fallacious strawman argument, aren't you ? I clearly said that I personally saw value in a modest positive inflation rate. That does not negate my point at all. 2%/yr extra inflation over 50 years is far too much.

Tne DM:USD was at 4.0:1 in 1960, so nearly all the extra inflation was post-Marshall plan. Your argument is not only factually wrong, but it makes my case stonger. In the 4 decades after marshall, the US inflation rate exceeded the Germans by 2.3%/yr on average (more than the 1.96% over 5 decades).

Your counter Kitty only makes sense if YOU believe that high inflation rates are a "single overarching good". The Fed has run ~3.1%/yr inflation for 9 decades while the bundesbank was around 1.1% No one, except perhaps you, believe such junk ideas that almost 3x the German inflation rate for long periods a "good".


Remember that the American dollar has basically been the world's reserve currency for the entire period you describe; German didn't need to inflate its money supply since people could and did increase production and expect to be paid in US dollars if they were trading on the world market (as of course everyone does). The US doesn't have that luxury. Most Americans like the advantages of being stockbrokers and bankers to the world, but it does have its downsides as well; this is one of them.

Let me strawman you for a change ... So you think the local grocer in Germany gets paid in USD and then trades these on the world market " as of course everyone does" ???

For a more serious rebuttal; there is no causal relationship between people choosing the dollar for international trade and the treasury producing more currency than corresponds to GDP. The extra 2+% inflation is NOT a necessary consequence of the dollar's role in international trade. In fact it degrades the dollars value in trade.

More important, the US Central bank should manage it's currency in response to constituents needs, not those of international traders. If the two coincide that's fine, but won't generally be the case if the US has a managed currency. In fact the US is afraid to "float" it's currency against some other proxy currency for commodities b/c the USD is likely to drop tragically due to long term mismanagement. It will be a sad day for the US political class when their profligate spending plans immediately translate to higher commodity costs that can be objectively, quantifiably seen on any ticker.
 
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Do you know more about money and economy than Ron Paul does? If you do, you should email him and set him straight.

Yeah, that would work. :rolleyes:

Mr Lunatic,

I'm not sure if you know this but your insane ideas are ridiculous. Could you stop being so crazy?



Heck if that worked you could walk up to the guy on the street corner that argues with the ghost of Ronald Reagan and explain to him why he's delusional and he would agree and abandon his pastime. And, yeah, I'm comparing Ron Paul to the crazy guy on the street corner who argues with Ronald Reagan. That's how little intellectual respect I have for his meritless ramblings.
 
The Libertarian position does seem a bit deluded to me.
I assume Ron Paul is somewhat equivalent to the position alex libman defended.
 
The Libertarian position does seem a bit deluded to me.
I assume Ron Paul is somewhat equivalent to the position alex libman defended.

Deluded is being kind.

After all, how smart is it, really, to attach the value of one's currency to a good?
 
Well, it makes it a lot more difficult to control the value of that currency, you can't just make up more of the good as the economy expands.
 
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....And, yeah, I'm comparing Ron Paul to the crazy guy on the street corner who argues with Ronald Reagan. That's how little intellectual respect I have for his meritless ramblings.

Ironically, it requires intellect in proportion to intellectual respect given, for intellectual respect to be given; and I am left in a quandery wondering, if say for example, a thimble sized cup has ran over, and this would indeed be difficult to grasp, were one comfortable with only a half thimble, or to be more concise, the problem with meritless rambles might be that one has rambled past the merits?

Just wondering. But through the fog of derision it is loud and clear that you don't like the guy.
 
Deluded is being kind.

After all, how smart is it, really, to attach the value of one's currency to a good?

Let me play devil's advocate I am philosophically a libertarian, which does NOT mean I subscribe to Ron Paul or the US Libertarian Party ideas. I say this as intro to prevent the Queen of the Strawman argument from making a cheap pointless rebuttal.

Ron Paul's idea of auditing the Fed is not nonsense, idiotic or any of the other ad hominems thrown against the position. The constitution gives congress the power to create and manage the currency. They have wisely (after 130+ years of muddling) created a semi-autonomous central bank we call the Fed. We rationally want this agency to be sufficiently independent of politics so that various Senators don't directly influence the Fed. On the other hand we also want Congress to collectively be appraised of the Feds practices and to control the agency LT policies, but not the short term operational tactics.

I haven't read any of Ron Paul's books, so I'm hazy on his reasoning and details of his choices, but he seems to want to abolish fiat currency and return to a resource backed currency of reserve notes to avoid inflation. I don't think this is entirely realistic, but it is also not cartoonishly looney as many here claim. Common US currency prior to 1933 was backed by gold and then silver certificates were the common currency till 1964. US currency continued to be exchangeable internationally (not by US citizens) according to the Bretton-Woods $35/oz rate untill about 1970. So a backed currency is NOT crazy, insane, goofy as some suggest. That sort of ad hominem, derisive talk is only made by people incapable of making a coherent argument.

Tho' Gold and silver are in insufficient supply for even the pre-1933 25% reserve rate, but there are lots of other proxies available - not a problem. Milton Friedman's "Money Mischief" book shows how historically the supplies for gold and silver, sometimes due to mine discovery or new recovery methods, rather than Central Bank policy was the control for money supply, and to the extent this did not correspond with GDP changes inflation & deflation resulted. So I would dub specie backed currency as practical and implementable but not a solution to inflation/deflation cycles caused by lack of money supply control.

The alternative to a backed currency is fiat currency and a Central Bank model. In that case instead of money supply being dictated by mining efforts it is dictated by Fed policy capable of being influenced in all sorts of corrupting ways. It is in the governments interest (and that of any net borrower who has a non-inflation termed repayment agreement) to inflate the currency. This is Ron Paul's legitimate concern. I agree with that concern, but return to a backed currency is not a good solution. It takes money supply management away from the Fed and gives it to mining interests or to others who may diddle the market (remember Bunky Hunt cornering silver circa 1980 ?)

I think fiat currency has too many advantages to avoid, but the major shortcoming is the general tendency to manufacture inflation to the advantage of the currency controllers.

So I would call Paul's approach, to the extent I understand it, wrong-headed, and ineffective. It's a poor approach to a real problem. But it is considerably less looney and out-of-touch with reality than say claiming that increasing access to medical services will decrease total costs, or making claims about unmeasurable and wildly exaggerated "jobs saved" figures. Or the "too big to fail" malarky.

==

Milton Friedman quipped about replacing the Fed with a computer. This sort of idea is attractive so long as we ignore that corruptible humans gather the input data. It does get to the point - currency supply management should be a transparent and openly discussed, clear-cut policy, determined by Congress. The implementation should be undertaken by ppl generally above and isolated from political influence. That is a huge catch, but the current Fed mechanism doesn't look too bad. They should have their LT goals set by Congress, and be evaluated against those goals; even that introduces possible influence issues.
 
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Ron Paul's idea of auditing the Fed is not nonsense, idiotic or any of the other ad hominems thrown against the position. The constitution gives congress the power to create and manage the currency. They have wisely (after 130+ years of muddling) created a semi-autonomous central bank we call the Fed. We rationally want this agency to be sufficiently independent of politics so that various Senators don't directly influence the Fed. On the other hand we also want Congress to collectively be appraised of the Feds practices and to control the agency LT policies, but not the short term operational tactics.

Article I Section 8 of the US Constitution states clearly that Congress shall have the power

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;
​

The meaning of "coin" is unambiguous, and it does not authorize the Congress to delegate the counterfeiting of our money to unaccountable bankers, which is exactly what has happened at the Federal Reserve.

Furthermore, Article I Section 10 states that

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.​

Clearly the spirit of this section which enumerates powers prohibited by states applies to the Federal Reserve System, because it was inconceivable at the time that the Federal Government would be in charge of issuing fiat money. The spirit is that anything but gold and silver money is anathema, and not that the Federal Government should have the exclusive right to delegate the debasement of our money.

The creation of the Fed wasn't wise, it was a disaster. The Fed caused and presided over the Great Depression by contracting the money supply by roughly 30% at the worst possible time. It's caused and presided over multiple recessions, including the current one (despite Ben Bernanke's recent protests that it was a lack of regulation). Finally, it has presided over the destruction and debasement of the US dollar.

The central bank is the cause of the inflation tax, which is merely a regressive flat levy on monetary wealth. Assuming for a moment that the Fed actually was constitutional, why would the Congress, who represent the people of the United States, delegate the power to levy such a massive tax to an independent group of bankers? The argument for Federal Reserve independence is totally ridiculous, and without merit. The control of our money is of crucial importance. Assuming that we're going to continue to disregard what the Constitution says, why shouldn't our elected politicians have control over the money supply? They legislate the rates of every other tax, and are presumably held accountable at the voting booth. The creation of money is not a neutral transaction, and it's folly to assume that "independent" bankers will do it impartially.

Lets follow the Constitution. If not, lets place the administration of what is in effect the biggest tax in the hands of elected politicians, and hold them accountable. The status quo is unacceptable.

Tho' Gold and silver are in insufficient supply for even the pre-1933 25% reserve rate, but there are lots of other proxies available - not a problem. Milton Friedman's "Money Mischief" book shows how historically the supplies for gold and silver, sometimes due to mine discovery or new recovery methods, rather than Central Bank policy was the control for money supply, and to the extent this did not correspond with GDP changes inflation & deflation resulted. So I would dub specie backed currency as practical and implementable but not a solution to inflation/deflation cycles caused by lack of money supply control.

The idea that the supply of gold is relevant to its function as money, is another specious argument. There is plenty of gold to serve its Constitutional function, and gold will simply be revalued to reflect past debasement.

The alternative to a backed currency is fiat currency and a Central Bank model. In that case instead of money supply being dictated by mining efforts it is dictated by Fed policy capable of being influenced in all sorts of corrupting ways. It is in the governments interest (and that of any net borrower who has a non-inflation termed repayment agreement) to inflate the currency. This is Ron Paul's legitimate concern. I agree with that concern, but return to a backed currency is not a good solution. It takes money supply management away from the Fed and gives it to mining interests or to others who may diddle the market (remember Bunky Hunt cornering silver circa 1980 ?)

From my perspective, there is no difference between Nelson Hunt, and Ben Bernanke. Neither are operating in my interest.

I think fiat currency has too many advantages to avoid, but the major shortcoming is the general tendency to manufacture inflation to the advantage of the currency controllers.

So I would call Paul's approach, to the extent I understand it, wrong-headed, and ineffective. It's a poor approach to a real problem. But it is considerably less looney and out-of-touch with reality than say claiming that increasing access to medical services will decrease total costs, or making claims about unmeasurable and wildly exaggerated "jobs saved" figures. Or the "too big to fail" malarky.

The real problem is the existence of the unconstitutional Federal Reserve itself.
 
From my perspective, there is no difference between Nelson Hunt, and Ben Bernanke.

That's right. When you operate from a perspective of willful and ideological blindness, you have no capacity to see any differences whatsoever.

... or anything else.
 
Hang on a second.

Is Tippit REALLY trying to say that monetary policy should be in the hand of politicians?

What the **** is up with people who want to subject monetary policy to political attitudes and whims?
 
Hang on a second.

Is Tippit REALLY trying to say that monetary policy should be in the hand of politicians?

No, it's a stalking horse. As with Ron Paul, as well.

Auditing the Fed is explicitly a first step on the road to abolishing it entirely, getting rid of fiat money, and using wampum beads and conch shells as God intended.

Under other circumstances, that would be a slippery slope argument --- my God, if you allow them the to audit the Fed, they'll try to get rid of it! But since that's explicitly their avowed aim (I refer you to Paul's marvelous work of fiction "End the Fed"), it's just an exercise in reading comprehension.
 

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