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Blame The Government For 9/11 Truthers!!!

Joined
May 1, 2008
Messages
836
I posted a thread a couple days ago, and the direction it went led me to this post. I thought it would be interesting to play "Monday morning quarterback" with some of you guys/girls (nearly 8 years later). I just have a few questions that relate to each other, so here we go!

1) Do you think the Bush Admin. helped or hurt the amount of CT's that surfaced after 9/11? Did they bring on a lot of this themselves?

2) Knowing what you know now, what would you have done different to insure/prevent CT's after 9/11? What did Bush do/not do, that brought on more CT's?

3) If the Bush admin. had been completely transparent, would that have completely prevented 9/11 truth from surfacing, or would it have happened anyway?
 
Oh, and nearly 7 years later. Sorry, I could lie and say I fat-fingered it, but I'm just an example of a failed school system, and what bong residue will do to your brain. The other day I couldn't remember how old I was, sigh.
 
Didn't you see that wonderful documentary by Parker and Stone? They showed that 9/11 conspiracy theories are a conspiracy theory pushed by the government to make the 25% of the US population think that the government did it to placate them.
 
1) Do you think the Bush Admin. helped or hurt the amount of CT's that surfaced after 9/11? Did they bring on a lot of this themselves?

About the only thing that would've made any particular difference was if they (the US) hadn't bothered with the Iraqi campaign. No Iraq would've meant the troothers no longer had their 'big motive'. Although you could then argue we'd still be hearing it was all a 'false flag' in order to facilitate anti-terror legislation, 'Big Brother' state etc etc.

2) Knowing what you know now, what would you have done different to insure/prevent CT's after 9/11? What did Bush do/not do, that brought on more CT's?

Most CT's are based on outright lies and/or distortion of existing known facts and its not like most CT's go 'oh OK then, we were wrong' when you point out the gaping holes in their arguments. So really what else could you do short of taking CT nutters back in time to see the incidents firsthand?!

To make a kind of comparison its not like NASA were exactly ultra-secretive about the Apollo programme and the faux-science of the theories is easily debunked yet we still have the moon landing CT's.

3) If the Bush admin. had been completely transparent, would that have completely prevented 9/11 truth from surfacing, or would it have happened anyway?

See answer to point 2. Yes it would've happened anyway. No doubt if everyone had been 100% truthful and open from the start then the nutters would probably have instead pointed to the explanation being too open and the answers too forthcoming to not be suspicious.
 
1) Do you think the Bush Admin. helped or hurt the amount of CT's that surfaced after 9/11? Did they bring on a lot of this themselves?

I don't like your wording, so I'll say that the administration's behavior after and before 9/11 contributed rhetorical fodder to conspiracy theories concerning the 9/11 attacks. The administration's behavior from about the 2002 SotU forward, with much emphasis on the run-up to Iraq and the invasion (and subsequent lack of WMD), tended to alienate a great many people throughout the world and sparked paranoia like a match to flash paper.


2) Knowing what you know now, what would you have done different to insure/prevent CT's after 9/11? What did Bush do/not do, that brought on more CT's?

The first and foremost thing the administration could have done was to be openly and publicly supportive of the 9/11 Commission when it was initially forming and requesting funds. The initial resistance and constant undermining of the Commission that took place has left an indelible negative mark on an otherwise thorough investigation. Another thing I would have suggested differently was the whole "Axis of Evil" thing in January of 2002, most especially because one of those 'Axis' members (Iran) had actually been helping us with support (money and influence) in Afghanistan. That, along with the fact that not a single shred of evidence linking Iraq in any way to al Qaeda (at least not as a friendly) or 9/11 was ever found but continually implied through pro-war rhetoric by White House officials leaves quite a bitter taste in the mouths of many Americans (and not just conspiracy theorists). It would have been better for the administration and for America in general if things like the August 6th memo, the Tora Bora incident, and many things that Richard Clarke talks about later in books came up in a more explanatory format while there was more sympathy for the US and the administration worldwide. Yes, there would have been some embarrassment, but what most likely what would have followed may have been precisely the calls for improved intelligence-gathering resources and integration that the administration so ham-fistedly pushed through in the first place. Also, a much-overlooked detail is that the administration shouldn't have allowed Christie Whitman's office to 'edit' facts about the Ground Zero dangers and should have pushed both the EPA and FEMA to be more aggressive about on-site safety of the clean-up. Unfortunately this would have cost more and it would have meant things like Wall Street and many offices having to relocate for longer, but considering the lasting effects that such concern would have for the administration's credibility it would have been worth it.

Other than that, additional things I think would have helped are avoiding some of the more blatant nepotism (like in the Justice Dept.) and not beating the war drums against Iran (especially not to the same tune as Iraq just a few years prior).


3) If the Bush admin. had been completely transparent, would that have completely prevented 9/11 truth from surfacing, or would it have happened anyway?

Do you often completely talk in such complete absolutes? Would 9/11 conspiracy theories have been totally avoided? No, absolutes are silly. However, the vast majority of the compelling talking points truthers use to attract people would have been nullified by a little more due diligence and a more open policy of addressing and answering questions regarding the attacks. Many of the truthers I've spoken with these last couple years tend to have the crux of their views on the Iraq War, on information that's come out from "leaks" or other sources contradicting the administrations "we knew nothing at all" claims prior to the attacks, and by information about the health problems facing construction and cleanup crew members from Ground Zero. Those are three talking points that are actually featured heavily in LC:FC, and despite the nuanced facts regarding them that do not support a conspiracy they are easily presented in a conspirational manner because of the closed-lipped behavior of the administration and the fact that parts of the administration have been caught in some egregious falsehoods.

Some of the qualities of the administration that lend to conspiracy theories aren't exclusive to the Bush administration, though. Politicians seem to habitually avoid simple admissions of error or straight-forward apologizing, and it seems to be a quality more stark in politics today than it was 10, 20, or 25 (or more) years ago. Of course, that's more a subject on politics than it is on conspiracy theories, so I won't try to give too detailed an explanation of what I mean except to say that since Nixon it seems like every subsequent administration (Dem. and Rep.) has had more and more difficult a time with being frank and honest with the American people. When things aren't going poorly-- no wars, decent economy, not a bunch of scandals-- that quality tends to be the brunt of jokes and comedy skits. When things start seeming more stressed-- two wars, a shrinking dollar, and a current financial crisis-- those jokes and comedy skits can tend to hit tender spots and (for some) stir varied levels of distrust in our government in general. Conspiracy theories can be an extreme example of such distrust. CTs can also be indicative of severe paranoia issues, but I posit that the majority of people who believe in conspiracy theories are of that opinion because of the extreme distrust I mention above, not the severe (or clinically acute) paranoia.
 
Do you often completely talk in such complete absolutes? Would 9/11 conspiracy theories have been totally avoided? No, absolutes are silly. However, the vast majority of the compelling talking points truthers use to attract people would have been nullified by a little more due diligence and a more open policy of addressing and answering questions regarding the attacks.

Yeah, that was not intended to be so absolute. I was speaking of the "movement", more than the CT's themselves (which you also spoke on). You are definitely right about CT's being, for the most part, unavoidable. Great post.

I was interested in a "truther" perspective on this one also. Where are Red Ibis, or The Author, or Tweeter? Figures, when you want to hear from them, they're MIA.
 
You mean the same way Timothy McVeigh blamed Bill Clinton for what happend in Waco Texas to David Koresh and the branch of davidians?
 
According to South Park, the truthers are all government shills spreading false conspiracy theories to make nutjobs *think* that the government is all powerful enough to pull off such a nutty conspiracy theory.
 
Yeah, that was not intended to be so absolute. I was speaking of the "movement", more than the CT's themselves (which you also spoke on). You are definitely right about CT's being, for the most part, unavoidable. Great post.

I was interested in a "truther" perspective on this one also. Where are Red Ibis, or The Author, or Tweeter? Figures, when you want to hear from them, they're MIA.

Well, the chances are that someone who firmly believes the truther conspiracy theory is not going to work from the assumption of possibility that the government had no control over whether the events happened, and thus your questions would be a bit unanswerable from their perspective.

But yes, conspiracy theories are unavoidable. It's obvious that being furtive and in some ways deceptive worked against the government from the perspective of conspiracy theories, and if nothing else I think that the stark lack of transparency in a time of crisis was the largest factor contributing to an almost-organized truther movement as a whole. I say "almost-organized" because it's really difficult to see the overabundance of self-determination and overuse of personal gravitas by individuals as anything wholly organized. There seems to be a contest of who can scream the loudest for being considered a 'leader' in the movement.
 
According to South Park, the truthers are all government shills spreading false conspiracy theories to make nutjobs *think* that the government is all powerful enough to pull off such a nutty conspiracy theory.

Certainly more plausible than the conspiracy theories they spread, that's for sure.

I do think of that sometimes. Any thought of the Bush administration covering up potential incompetence or whatever just gets shouted over by the thermite/CD/unclear Pentagon mystery thing/19 ay-rabs in a cave made NORAD run drills while they were standing down/you're all programmed sheeple types.
 
I was interested in a "truther" perspective on this one also. Where are Red Ibis, or The Author, or Tweeter? Figures, when you want to hear from them, they're MIA.

The problem is that the "truther perspective is that if the Bush administration didn't want the conspiracy theories to spread, they shouldn't have crashed four airliners that didn't exist in the first place, full of people who were also killed somewhere else, and hijacked by nineteen Arabs who never existed in the first place but are also still alive, into buildings that were never on fire very much but were destroyed by incendiaries that didn't get anything hotter than 250ºC but got it hot enough to melt it at the same time, plus explosives that didn't go bang and must have destroyed only the inner support columns because there were no explosions on the outer ones but also must have destroyed the only the outer support columns because the inner ones didn't collapse till last, crashed a twin-engined bomber into the Pentagon which was also two airliners that flew over the roof at the last moment while bombs went off, fired a missile at the Pentagon, shot down a completely innocent airliner over Shanksville that never actually crashed, and brought down WTC7 with a Sidewinder air-to-air missile that left huge lakes of molten metal beneath the pile of rubble that wasn't actually there at Ground Zero.

And that's just the more rational ones.

Dave
 

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