Blame the Dems for Iraq

[Luke T.]

Okay. I have Windexed my crystal ball and I will tell you how and when the Dems will be blamed for Iraq, step by step.

1. Dems initiate timed troop withdrawal from Iraq.

2. Iraq explodes/implodes into violent civil war, becomes safe haven for Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, International ANSWER, and Tim Robbins.

3. Terrorist attack occurs in U.S.

4. Dems get blamed for terrorist attack for not "going for the win" in Iraq.

5. Loose Change VII suggests Dubya is behind latest terrorist attack due to its "auspicious timing".

 

[Darth Rotor]

(I think the US has some Neutron bombs left although not in any significant ammounts).

Nope. President Carter scrapped that weaponization program.

Then it's just a question of who is prepared to risk pissing off someone who has the most powerful army on the planet and has shown it is prepared to kill tens of millions of people to atchive thier objectives.

Really? Provide examples of this please. Curious at how you arrive at this perception. Last I checked, the UK has ICBM's on their SSBN's. Have they been mothballed?

Of course most US troops would disobey if ordered to do it which would be a bit of a problem.

That is an unknown, though you may be correct. If someone called me on the radio, authenticated correctly, and I was the guy with the button that got the order "nuke China, city x, y, and z" I'd have that button pushed as fast as I could reach it. But that's just me. Since I am not in the military line of work anymore -- I never had the button to push, thank goodness -- a billion Chinese are safe. Probably for the better, all things considered.

I'm not sure how easy it is to tell the difference when machine gunning villages from the air and dropping incendiaries ( in the form of phosphorus bombs)

(I fixed your spelling)
Please provide examples what you are referring to in this "machine gunning villages from the air." I need a point of reference here. What do you think a "phosphorous bomb" is that anyone has dropped, lately? You appear to be talking out of your arse. The Willy Pete that raised such a hubub in Fallujah 2004 (Nov) was from artillery shells. Do you have credible evidence to show it was a "bomb" dropped from an airplane, or are you making this up? The majority of bombs are HE, though we do have some FAE's that are tres sweet!

I thought there were a lot of mexicans looking for a job. If the US decided to side with the Sunnies then there would be all those young men in saudi arabia without jobs.

The Saudis import a lot of labor from South Asia and East Asia. What are you trying to get at here? Point seems a bit cloudy, it may be due to how I am reading it.

Shia are a bit harder.

Harder to what: kill off en masse? I think I missed something there as well.

DR

 

[Darth Rotor]

Okay. I have Windexed my crystal ball and I will tell you how and when the Dems will be blamed for Iraq, step by step.

1. Dems initiate timed troop withdrawal from Iraq.

2. Iraq explodes/implodes into violent civil war, becomes safe haven for Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, International ANSWER, and Tim Robbins.

3. Terrorist attack occurs in U.S.

4. Dems get blamed for terrorist attack for not "going for the win" in Iraq.

5. Loose Change VII suggests Dubya is behind latest terrorist attack due to its "auspicious timing".

You forgot point

6. "Blame Canada." (Steven Jones and Corey Rowe will claim to have evidence that the terrorists infiltrated across the Canadian Border in 40 foot barges with 3 foot centers, of course. )

DR

 

[Garrette]

Nope. President Carter scrapped that weaponization program.

Ditto.

Really? Provide examples of this please. Curious at how you arrive at this perception. Last I checked, the UK has ICBM's on their SSBN's. Have they been mothballed?

Ditto.

That is an unknown, though you may be correct.

I think many more would comply than would not, but it is certainly an unknown.

Please provide examples what you are referring to in this "machine gunning villages from the air." I need a point of reference here. What do you think a "phosphorous bomb" is that anyone has dropped, lately? You appear to be talking out of your arse. The Willy Pete that raised such a hubub in Fallujah 2004 (Nov) was from artillery shells. Do you have credible evidence to show it was a "bomb" dropped from an airplane, or are you making this up? The majority of bombs are HE, though we do have some FAE's that are tres sweet!

geni is referring to the UK in post WWI Iraq, and not the US in present day Iraq though I will second the request for specifics on this.

The Saudis import a lot of labor from South Asia and East Asia. What are you trying to get at here? Point seems a bit cloudy, it may be due to how I am reading it.

Ditto.

Harder to what: kill off en masse? I think I missed something there as well.

I think he means getting them to take over internal security, thereby acting as the troop augmentation that is required for success.

I don't think they will be harder, though.

 

[geni]

Nope. President Carter scrapped that weaponization program.

It has been suggested that Reagan restarted it:

http://www.manuelsweb.com/sam_cohen.htm

Really? Provide examples of this please. Curious at how you arrive at this perception. Last I checked, the UK has ICBM's on their SSBN's. Have they been mothballed?

We didn't nuke Buenos Aires

That is an unknown, though you may be correct. If someone called me on the radio, authenticated correctly, and I was the guy with the button that got the order "nuke China, city x, y, and z" I'd have that button pushed as fast as I could reach it. But that's just me. Since I am not in the military line of work anymore -- I never had the button to push, thank goodness -- a billion Chinese are safe. Probably for the better, all things considered.

Hmm I wasn't thinking of nukes but even there the very limited evidence we have is that when put on the spot in a real situation there are a significant number of people who just can't bring themselves to do it.

(I fixed your spelling)
Please provide examples what you are referring to in this "machine gunning villages from the air." I need a point of reference here. What do you think a "phosphorous bomb" is that anyone has dropped, lately?

No. Better incenduries exist today. Back in the 1920s the british were haveing a problem with a kurdish upriseing. Various weapons were used and the records are a bit confused (Poisen gas may or may not have been used although I suspect it wasn't) how machine gunning from the air and phosphorous bombs appear to be rather better documented.

http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:...+kurds+1920s+british&hl=en&gl=uk&ct=clnk&cd=1

The Saudis import a lot of labor from South Asia and East Asia. What are you trying to get at here? Point seems a bit cloudy, it may be due to how I am reading it.

A standard imerial tactic is to pic a minority and support them getting them to do a lot a fighting for you. If the US chose to do this with the sunni there would be no problem in brinning in sunnis from the outside. Saudi arabia has a large number of unemployed young men. This would be a logical recruiteing source in such a senario.

Harder to what: kill off en masse? I think I missed something there as well.

If you back the shia there is a lack of external recruiting sources.

 

[Garrette]

If you back the shia there is a lack of external recruiting sources.

There's Iran, which is already heavily into it. Why would they stop if we started supporting their guys?

 

[Garrette]

Hmm I wasn't thinking of nukes but even there the very limited evidence we have is that when put on the spot in a real situation there are a significant number of people who just can't bring themselves to do it.

Serious question, not a confrontational one: What evidence?

No. Better incenduries exist today. Back in the 1920s the british were haveing a problem with a kurdish upriseing. Various weapons were used and the records are a bit confused (Poisen gas may or may not have been used although I suspect it wasn't) how machine gunning from the air and phosphorous bombs appear to be rather better documented.

http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:...+kurds+1920s+british&hl=en&gl=uk&ct=clnk&cd=1

I guess I owe DR a partial apology. You were referring to both post WWI Iraq and contemporary Iraq. At least, your reference is referring to both.

1. The Kurdish problem did not go away for the British, so your contention about killing 'em all being an effective means of control still is not supported. (Earlier you mentioned Carthage as an example, and I neglected to reply: Bad example. They ceased to be a serious problem as soon as Rome got control of the Mare Nostrum. They ceased to be a problem at all after Zama. Razing the city was hubris.)

2. If you are agreeing with your reference that the US used WP in Fallujah, I'll need more than a vague reference to a vague German newspaper to agree.

 

[Darth Rotor]

It has been suggested that Reagan restarted it:
http://www.manuelsweb.com/sam_cohen.htm

I'd suggest you missed the matter of GHWB and Clinton presidencies.

With the fall of the Berlin Wall and the end of communism as we knew it, the Bush administration moved to dismantle all of our tactical nuclear weapons, including the Reagan stockpile of neutron bombs. In Cohen's mind, America was brought back to Square One. Without tactical weapons like the neutron bomb, America would be left with two choices if an enemy was winning a conventional war: surrender, or unleash the holocaust of strategic nuclear weapons.

Cohen said that when U.N. inspectors went to Iraq to examine the Iraqis' nuclear weapons capabilities, the U.N. team found documents showing that they had purchased quantities of red mercury. The material means a neutron bomb can be built "the size of baseball" but able to kill everyone within several square blocks.

So, Hans Blix ignored this, or didn't find any baseball sized bombs?

We didn't nuke Buenos Aires

Given the war aims of the UK, that was never a matter on the table. The Brits Didn't bomb Buenos Aires with anything. It was a limited war.

No. Better incenduries exist today. Back in the 1920s the british were haveing a problem with a kurdish upriseing. Various weapons were used and the records are a bit confused (Poisen gas may or may not have been used although I suspect it wasn't) how machine gunning from the air and phosphorous bombs appear to be rather better documented.

Mussolini used gas on the Ethopians in 1935, and incendiaries.

Conquest of Ethiopia
The invasion of Ethiopia was accomplished rapidly (the proclamation of Empire took place in May of 1936) and involved several atrocities such as the use of chemical weapons, (mustard gas and phosgene) and the indiscriminate slaughter of much of the local population to prevent opposition.

The armed forces disposed of a vast arsenal of grenades and bombs loaded with mustard gas which were dropped from airplanes. This substance was also sprayed directly from above like an "insecticide" on to enemy combatants and villages. It was Mussolini himself who authorized the use of the weapons: "Rome, 27 October '35. A.S.E. Graziani. The use of gas as an ultima ratio to overwhelm enemy resistance and in case of counterattack is authorized. Mussolini." "Rome, 28 December '35. A.S.E. Badoglio. Given the enemy system I have authorized V.E. the use even on a vast scale of any gas and flamethrowers. Mussolini." Mussolini and his generals sought to cloak the operations of chemical warfare in the utmost secrecy, but the crimes of the fascist army were revealed to the world through the denunciations of the International Red Cross and of many foreign observers. The Italian reaction to these revelations consisted in the "erroneous" bombardment (at least 19 times) of Red Cross tents posted in the areas of military encampment of the Ethiopian resistance. The orders imparted by Mussolini, with respect to the Ethiopian population, were very clear: "Rome, 5 June 1936. A.S.E. Graziani. All rebels taken prisoner must be killed. Mussolini." "Rome, 8 July 1936. A.S.E. Graziani. I have authorized once again V.E. to begin and systematically conduct a politics of terror and extermination of the rebels and the complicit population. Without the legge taglionis one cannot cure the infection in time. Await confirmation. Mussolini."[12] The predominant part of the work of repression was carried out by Italians who, besides the bombs laced with mustard gas, instituted forced labor camps, installed public gallows, killed hostages, and mutilated the corpses of their enemies.[13]Graziani ordered the elimination of captured guerrillas by way of throwing them out of airplanes in mid-flight.

But at least he made the trains run on time. Julio Douhet, an Italian, was the doctrinal father of the use of airborne gas attacks on enemy cities and civilian concentration.

A standard imerial tactic is to pic a minority and support them getting them to do a lot a fighting for you. If the US chose to do this with the sunni there would be no problem in brinning in sunnis from the outside. Saudi arabia has a large number of unemployed young men. This would be a logical recruiteing source in such a senario.

Got it.

If you back the shia there is a lack of external recruiting sources.

Got it.

DR

 

[geni]

I'd suggest you missed the matter of GHWB and Clinton presidencies.

No if they existed I doubt there are many left. If all else fails a working deisgn could be purchased from the french

So, Hans Blix ignored this, or didn't find any baseball sized bombs?

Red mercury appears to be part of a deliberate dissinformation campain.

Given the war aims of the UK, that was never a matter on the table.

Unless we lost.

The Brits Didn't bomb Buenos Aires with anything. It was a limited war.

Sure it wasn't in our interests to widen it unless we had to.

Mussolini used gas on the Ethopians in 1935, and incendiaries.

Yes it's the level of documentation of that fact that makes me think gas was not used by the british in iraq.

But at least he made the trains run on time. Julio Douhet, an Italian, was the doctrinal father of the use of airborne gas attacks on enemy cities and civilian concentration.

Britian thought of it first.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Britian thought of it first.

If I remember my "Theory of War" classes correctly, Douhet's writings on the uses of air power, in the early interwar period, predated the British ops in Iraq.

DR

 

[Luke T.]

Hey. When we bail out of Iraq, and the crap hits the fan, the UN is going to HAVE to step in.

BWA-HA-HA-HA!

 

[Darth Rotor]

Hey. When we bail out of Iraq, and the crap hits the fan, the UN is going to HAVE to step in.

BWA-HA-HA-HA!

Only Iran will offer to provide forces for the Blue Beret operation. Hmm, maybe the Chinese would. *ponders* Yeah, they just might.

DR