Blame it all on NORAD, sure

[Darth Rotor]

Just a really quick question for everyone.

Because there was an obvious coverup to save one's skin in this Pentagon ordeal, do you think there should be another investigation to see if they are any other government entities on that day trying to save their jobs over a proper investigations?

To what end?

Will another investigation bring anyone back to life?

No.

Will another investigation do other than present the leaders of the investigation with y pulpit from which to gain, or attempt to gain, political advantage by taking advantage of the blood innocently shed?

No.

Get on with it, man, and pretending that the enemy is a lesser man. The enemy gets a vote, in war, and in this war, the war of "how the world should be" the enemy, aka Osama and his pals, struck a blow.

Why is that so damned hard for so many people to accept? The enemy gets a vote in any war, ask anyone who has ever fought in one.

DR

 

[gumboot]

Just a really quick question for everyone.

Because there was an obvious coverup to save one's skin in this Pentagon ordeal, do you think there should be another investigation to see if they are any other government entities on that day trying to save their jobs over a proper investigations?

Now that I have oncovered the NORAD Tapes and made my timeline...

I say no. Why? Because the 9/11 Commission uncovered the NORAD deception pretty quickly.

Secondly, the deception itself didn't hide any nefarious behaviour.

-Andrew

 

[Gravy]

geggy!
Evidence?

 

[defaultdotxbe]

The only serious criticism I have of the air defense response to September 11 was the delay in getting a shoot down order - IMHO there should have been systems in place, and permission should not have needed to go as high as the executive.

thsi is directly related to the fact that there were no standing orders in place authorizing the use of deadly force on a civilian aircraft (no one ever anticipated the need to shoot one down)

and the criticism i have is not on the military itself, but of the individuals in the chain of command, it seems to me like a case of pass-the-buck, no one wanted to take the responsibility of giving the order to shoot down a plane full of civilians so it traveled up the chain

 

[gumboot]

and the criticism i have is not on the military itself, but of the individuals in the chain of command, it seems to me like a case of pass-the-buck, no one wanted to take the responsibility of giving the order to shoot down a plane full of civilians so it traveled up the chain

Absolutely!

-Andrew

 

[valis]

That's right! Until you blew the lid on it, NORAD had successfully convinced everyone that they had, in fact, successfully stopped the terrorist attacks on 9/11.

And they would have gotten away with it, if it weren't for those meddling kids.

 

[valis]

I mostly agree with you here. My only criticism is the notion that the current administration screwed up.

I totally disagree. I believe the seeds that made the success of the terrorist attack inevitable were laid the the decade before 9/11, when the US repeatedly failed to treat terrorism as a serious threat - both at home and abroad.

And Going into my own rant...

I believe this is a wider problem. The entire west made the same failures, ever since the 70's, when terrorism really started to hit us hard. I believe most of the west is still making the exact same errors. We still don't treat terrorism as a serious threat.

I think the worst repercussion of our failures over the last 30 years or so are still to come.

-Andrew

I could not agree more. They saw Carter humbled by the Iranians. Reagan pull out of Beruit. Bush fail to finish of Iraq. And Clinton make a stern speech and fire a few cruise missles. It showed the world that America is very unwilling to fight, no matter what the provication and when it does it takes very little to make us run away.

I think the idea that another administration will somehow compile an unbiased report to be silly. If it is a Dem. administration then it will just be time to score points and engage in hyperbole for their own purposes.

 

[gumboot]

I could not agree more. They saw Carter humbled by the Iranians. Reagan pull out of Beruit. Bush fail to finish of Iraq. And Clinton make a stern speech and fire a few cruise missles. It showed the world that America is very unwilling to fight, no matter what the provication and when it does it takes very little to make us run away.

Don't forget Osama Bin Laden has repeatedly used Somalia as evidence that the US can be sent packing after a mere 18 deaths...

The tactic of use RPG spams against helicopter tail rotors was a tactic the Mujahedeen picked up in Afghanistan fighting the Soviets (except they used stingers, of course).

-Andrew

 

[geggy]

gumboot

I feel like I'm going in circles in here. Please do take another look at the timeline of military exercises here. and I do mean look closely..

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/...te_911_timeline&before_9/11=militaryExercises

After having seen the timeline, it becomes relatively easy to understand that the reason for NORAD's slow reponses to the hijacked planes because they were confused, delayed and distracted by the numerous wargames. NORAD radar screens showed as many as 22 hijacked airliners at the same time. In recent reports of pentagon's deception and cover up, the commission failed (or deliberately avoided) to mention the wargame exercises that took place on 9/11. The commission report only mentioned one exercise which was the vigilant guardian when in fact there were at least 6 exercises occuring at the time.

By the way, dick cheney was handed permission to directly control all wargame and drill operations by president bush in may of 2001.

and lastly, WASHINGTON (CNN) -- As horrified Americans watched the terror attacks of September 11, 2001, unfold on their television sets, Vice President Dick Cheney directed the U.S. government's response from an emergency bunker.

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/09/11/ar911.king.cheney/

proof enough for you?

 

[geggy]

"It was a clear day, there were no weather problems, and then we saw the second airplane hit in real time," Cheney told CNN's John King in an interview in the vice president's office.

Funny thing here that I want to mention...cheney's inital reaction to the first hit in NYC was he thought it was an accident. Why would he think that when in fact, the white house had received numerous warnings that an attack in lower manhattan was imminent?

 

[Rob Lister]

..cheney's inital reaction to the first hit in NYC was he thought it was an accident. Why would he think that when in fact, the white house had received numerous warnings that an attack in lower manhattan was imminent?

Because it was ominous and surreal, mayhaps? That was my initial reaction as well. Not because I'm stupid, but because I have (had) a flaw in actually believing that nobody would intentionally do such a thing. Were I a real Israeli, I'd likely have had no doubt.

 

[gumboot]

gumboot

I feel like I'm going in circles in here. Please do take another look at the timeline of military exercises here. and I do mean look closely..

Geggy, I have read that ENTIRE timeline. It took me weeks. There are a LOT of things in that timeline that are wrong, or simply rumour.

Yes, NORAD have done exercises for terrorist attacks before, WHAT IS YOUR POINT?

There was ONE NORAD exercise happening on 9/11. Got that Geggy? ONE. Not three, not twelve, not fifteen. ONE.

it becomes relatively easy to understand that the reason for NORAD's slow reponses to the hijacked planes because they were confused delayed and distracted by the numerous wargames.

Geggy! Please! I have heard the ACTUAL recordings from NEADS! They were not confused! They were not slow! They were not delayed! They were not distracted! The wargame was irrelevant! Got it?

NORAD radar screens showed as many as 22 hijacked airliners at the same time. In recent reports of pentagon's deception and cover up, the commission failed (or deliberately avoided) to mention the wargame exercises that took place on 9/11.

What on earth are you talking about???

Geggy get up with the play. Why are you acting like some big Pentagon coverup has recently been revealed? This is what happened:

NORAD staff said X to 9/11 commission in their testimonies
9/11 commission listened to NORAD tapes and discovered truth was Y
9/11 commission told NORAD staff off for lying
9/11 commission report published

few years gap

FOIA released NORAD tapes to Vanity Fair
Vanity Fair do detailed article on NORAD release
Geggy and other CTers scream cover-up at the "new" information.

THIS IS NOT NEW! The commission discovered this DURING their investigation. Okay?

Geggy I suggest you read my NORAD response timeline. It is in this thread.

Please read this and then explain how they were confused/delayed/whatever.

Bear in mind Geggy, these tapes are the EVIDENCE that NORAD lied in their original testimonies. If these recordings are false or faked, there goes your evidence of a "cover-up" (as you like to call it).

The commission report only mentioned one exercise which was the vigilant guardian when in fact there were at least 6 exercises occuring at the time.

Okay, humour me. Name them. Come on. Tell me what they were called, and what sort of exercise they were.

By the way, dick cheney was handed permission to directly control all wargame and drill operations by president bush in may of 2001.

All? For the whole military? Or the whole government? Every exercise? You sure? Do you have a source for this? Cheney must be some sort of demigod to control that many exercises.

proof enough for you?

No. Because I have the NORAD recordings. You have nothing but claims. Empty, hollow claims.

-Andrew