Blair is on his own

[rikzilla]

have spent many years slowly getting more and more p**sed off with American foreign policy and the attitudes of American people. For me, trashing Kyoto because it "threatened US jobs" was the final straw. I cheered when then the WTC came down. I saw it as the first real sign of hope for the world. Finally somebody had provided a message to the US in the only language it is capable of understanding - that of violence and dollars.

If you think I sound like an extremist, and that my views are not echoed from one end of planet Earth to the other then I suspect you, like most Americans, have a very poor understanding of the way your country is percieved from outside. My views are reflected all over the globe. America is internationally despised.

Well Geoff,

I'm not going to take you to task for your comments. I long ago learned that there is no way to reconcile our divergent political thought. Were I still mad at you I'd take that little comment of yours as a quote. I appreciate the fact that I have dialog with a person of your views. I appreciate your candor, you are I believe a very honest, yet emotional person. You know my views...we've been over all this a hundred times, it doesn't need to be revisited.

But there is one thing...the thought of you cheering the death of any person moves me to remind you of one thing. Taoism teaches that the furthest a person can be from "enlightenment" is when they are celebrating death. I know how important to you your search for enlightenment is....so get ahold of yourself. You're not a bad person....I know you're not. I know you didn't mean what you said...take it back. Don't give in to a self destructive and clearly irrational hatred. You will only damage your own well being by holding on to such an emotion.

-zilla

 

[rikzilla]

JK comes across as a neo-nazi. "All children should salute the flag of the fatherland every day". JK is an extremist, but I get the distinct impression that he's not that much of an extremist.

Why did three times as many people demonstrate on the streets of London than on the streets of New York?

Maybe because London didn't lose over 3,000 people in a massive act of ignorant evil.

 

[Hypocolius]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Blair is on his own

Richard

I do not believe the American public, or the people in the White House actually understand the level of anti-Americanism that will follow an illegal invasion of Iraq against the wishes of the UN. What they have seen so far is peanuts by comparison.

And I think you over-estimate that feeling. I live in an Arab State (Sharjah, UAE), and the general feeling amongst the Arabs that I know (and I know a lot of them) is that they'd rather get the whole thing over. They don't particularly like Bush or Blair, but they really don't like Hussain, and "why are we worried about all thet anyway, Sharon is the real monster". Yes, a lot of people have demonstrated, in nice safe places where their voice is not very loud, but the people in the front-line states (to steal a phrase from the Anti-Apartheid crowd) are basically sitting tight, hoping for a quick war, and Hussain to leave... in a body bag.

 

[Guest]

Well Geoff,

I'm not going to take you to task for your comments. I long ago learned that there is no way to reconcile our divergent political thought. Were I still mad at you I'd take that little comment of yours as a quote. I appreciate the fact that I have dialog with a person of your views. I appreciate your candor, you are I believe a very honest, yet emotional person. You know my views...we've been over all this a hundred times, it doesn't need to be revisited.

But there is one thing...the thought of you cheering the death of any person moves me to remind you of one thing. Taoism teaches that the furthest a person can be from "enlightenment" is when they are celebrating death.
-zilla

Rik,

I know this. I do not celebrate death. And I hear the voices of people like sundog and headscratcher. I should stay away from politics. I think I said once before that a good politician is a good liar. I'll leave politics to the politicians.

Geoff

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Blair is on his own

And I think you over-estimate that feeling. I live in an Arab State (Sharjah, UAE), and the general feeling amongst the Arabs that I know (and I know a lot of them) is that they'd rather get the whole thing over. They don't particularly like Bush or Blair, but they really don't like Hussain, and "why are we worried about all thet anyway, Sharon is the real monster". Yes, a lot of people have demonstrated, in nice safe places where their voice is not very loud, but the people in the front-line states (to steal a phrase from the Anti-Apartheid crowd) are basically sitting tight, hoping for a quick war, and Hussain to leave... in a body bag.

Sharon is indeed a monster.

I agree with you about this. The Arabs want rid of Saddam too. I think it is the anti-Americanism in Europe that is most relevant. For them it is a fear of American empire-building and the death of the UN.

 

[rikzilla]

The real problem Geoff, is that terrorism works. The reason that it works is that the exact "solution" you have come up with rewards terrorism. By addressing the "root causes" of terrorism you are rewarding the terrorist's cause. You may actually succeed in reducing specific terrorist acts by your method Geoff...but there are many, many other groups...all with "root causes" of their own. You encourage widespread terrorism when you give in to the demands, or advance the cause of any terrorist.

Listen to the words of Zehdi Labib Terzi, the PLO's chief observer at the United Nations:

"The first several hijackings aroused the consciousness of the world and awakened the media and the world opinion much more--and more effectively--than 20 years of pleading at the UN."

The Palestinians were rewarded for their terrorism by increased awareness of their "root causes". Attention that resulted in their leader being welcomed by the UN General Assembly, their organisation being granted observer status at the UN...and many nations recognising their so called "government". That was back in 1968 I believe. The modern era of political terrorism was born at that time. Guess what? Terrorism did not decrease....it has increased over the years....mostly because it has been proved to work. It has been continually rewarded by our "friends" in the international community. Why wouldn't it grow and thrive?

Things are different now. 9/11 made them different. We're going to try the new aggressive approach to terrorism reduction. GWB's approach is a good common sense tactic of deterrence, an approach that doesn't seem to have been thought of seriously before!

Of course root causes should be addressed, but not at the point of a gun. Actually the root causes of groups which resort to terrorism Should Never be addressed at all until such groups repudiate the tactic. Just MHO.

-zilla

 

[Q-Source]

I want you to understand the depth of anti-US feeling that exists in the world today.

The US government will change only when US public opinion changes. Bush needs to be put under as much pressure from US public opinion as Blair is from British public opinion.

What will it take to change US public opinion?

Geoff,

You couldn't say it better. There is an anti-USA feeling as well in countries from LA.

But, don't hold your breath about changing the "American way of thinking", it is like talking to the walls. The majority of them cannot understand because they want to live in Hollywoodist bubble.

I have seen a huge difference between British and US public opinion. My respect and admiration for British people...

Q-S

 

[Segnosaur]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Blair is on his own

I agree with you about this. The Arabs want rid of Saddam too. I think it is the anti-Americanism in Europe that is most relevant. For them it is a fear of American empire-building and the death of the UN.

Ironic, considering its the actions of a few countries in Europe that is leading to the death of the U.N. (Namely, French, German and Russian attempts to prevent the U.N. from enforcing resolutions it passed itself.)

(Edited to fix a typo)

 

[Segnosaur]

But, don't hold your breath about changing the "American way of thinking", it is like talking to the walls. The majority of them cannot understand because they want to live in Hollywoodist bubble.

I have seen a huge difference between British and US public opinion. My respect and admiration for British people...

Why do you respect British public opinion? Just because a large number are anti-war?

Have they also protested against Saddam? Have the protests brought through any real possibilties for improving the situation, instead of just "Wait (and forget about innocent Iraqis killed by Saddam)"?

 

[Mike B.]

Geoff,

You couldn't say it better. There is an anti-USA feeling as well in countries from LA.

But, don't hold your breath about changing the "American way of thinking", it is like talking to the walls. The majority of them cannot understand because they want to live in Hollywoodist bubble.

I have seen a huge difference between British and US public opinion. My respect and admiration for British people...

Q-S

I suppose if I had said such an ignorant mean spirited comment full of biased sterotypes, I would be an "arrogant" American...

Ahh that is consistency for ya...

 

[DanishDynamite]

Mike B.

I suppose if I had said such an ignorant mean spirited comment full of biased sterotypes, I would be an "arrogant" American...

Ahh that is consistency for ya...

Good point.

UCE is living in a dream world. The world as such doesn't despise the US. Its true that large proportions of the western world, even majorities, do not agree with the current US policy towards Iraq, and large proportions likewise feel that the US disdain for the UN, Kyoto, International Court, etc, is reprehensible and arrogant, but I would like to see UCE show proof that people generally despise the US. I've seen "US approval polls" within the last month or two, and while the approval rating had dropped, it was still a majority in most countries.

UCE, there is a difference between disagreeing with the current administration of the US or their policies, and despising the US itself.

 

[Reginald]

Maybe because London didn't lose over 3,000 people in a massive act of ignorant evil.

True, but many in the towers were British.....

And we have lost over 3000 because of the Northern Ireland issue. (acts of ignorant evil)

Not making any point here other than to say, that in the wake of one terrible attrocity lets not forget the victims of other (allbeit more protracted) atrocities.

And all hopefully agree that all terrorism needs to be adressed.

 

[Mike B.]

Always good to hear from ya DD

 

[Guest]

Of course root causes should be addressed, but not at the point of a gun. Actually the root causes of groups which resort to terrorism Should Never be addressed at all until such groups repudiate the tactic. Just MHO.

-zilla

Then you learned nothing from the experience of the British and the IRA. Your MHO is a recipe for stalemate and bloodshed unending. So long as the British government refused to talk to the IRA the bombs kept on blowing up and no progress was possible. We now have some hope of a solution, and for one reason only : The British government decided the only solution was to address the source problem and hope the IRA would disarm when it was dealt with.

 

[Guest]

Mike B.Good point.

UCE is living in a dream world. The world as such doesn't despise the US. Its true that large proportions of the western world, even majorities, do not agree with the current US policy towards Iraq, and large proportions likewise feel that the US disdain for the UN, Kyoto, International Court, etc, is reprehensible and arrogant, but I would like to see UCE show proof that people generally despise the US. I've seen "US approval polls" within the last month or two, and while the approval rating had dropped, it was still a majority in most countries.

UCE, there is a difference between disagreeing with the current administration of the US or their policies, and despising the US itself.

I don't despise the US. I despise the attitudes and behaviour of a segment of the population.

 

[Jon_in_london]

The British government decided the only solution was to address the source problem and hope the IRA would disarm when it was dealt with.

Which still remains to be seen.

 

[Q-Source]

Why do you respect British public opinion? Just because a large number are anti-war?

Don't you think that it is enough to respect them???

Have they also protested against Saddam? Have the protests brought through any real possibilties for improving the situation, instead of just "Wait (and forget about innocent Iraqis killed by Saddam)"?

I don't know if they have protested in this regard. Maybe, they don't want to change any country's statuo quo or they don't want to impose their own foreign policy on other countries. This is what I hate about the US foreign policy.

They think that democracy in other countries cannot exist without their "help". They use democracy and human rights to get what they really want : access to natural resources and political power.

Q-S

 

[Segnosaur]

Don't you think that it is enough to respect them???

No, because the anti-war protestors tend to chant their little 'No War for Oil' slogans like empty-headed parrots, without understanding anything about what's going on over in Iraq, or of all the resolutions that have been passed by the UN against Iraq, or the real reason France opposes U.S. actions. Look at the video on brain-terminal.com... that's your typical anti-war protestor...

And I would have more respect for them if at least a few carried signs urging Saddam to disarm or leave Iraq.

They think that democracy in other countries cannot exist without their "help". They use democracy and human rights to get what they really want : access to natural resources and political power.

Guess what? Iraq isn't a democracy. And without U.S. intervention, it won't be. The U.S. still may not be successful in turning into a democracy, but it won't go that way any time soon without help. Or do you think the magical democracy fairy will somehow wave her wand and bring peace and freedom to Iraq?

Oh, my god, they are threating to bring HUMAN RIGHTS to get natural resources? My god, the barbarity. Next thing you know, they'll be threating to eliminate world hunger in order to get what they want. Will those evil Americans never stop?

 

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by Undercover Elephant:

Then you learned nothing from the experience of the British and the IRA. Your MHO is a recipe for stalemate and bloodshed unending. So long as the British government refused to talk to the IRA the bombs kept on blowing up and no progress was possible. We now have some hope of a solution, and for one reason only : The British government decided the only solution was to address the source problem and hope the IRA would disarm when it was dealt with.

There's reason to believe that successfull SAS campaigns were hitting the IRA very hard indeed, leading them to the conclusion that the "struggle" could be lost and the negotiating table wasn't a bad alternative in this instance.

Far from disarming, the IRA has been nabbed smuggling guns from Florida, three IRA members are on trial in Colombia for aiding marxist rebels and the ceasefire has allowed both sets of homicidal thugs extend their reign of terror in their respective communities.

You seem oblivious to the experience of the Irish government and the IRA. The Irish state was established when the Irish peole approved the Anglo-Irish treaty of 1921 by giving the Pro-treaty factions a clear majority in the State's first election. This wasn't to the liking of the anti-treaty IRA who embarked on a campaign of terror against the new state (sounds familiar) and plunged the country into civil war. They were speedily defeated by the Irish army. Thereafter successive Irish governments (including those who had supported and fought with the anti-treaty side in the civil war) failed to take the enlightened step of reasoning and entering into dialogue with the IRA during their sporadic attempts at destabilizing the Irish state, rather they used internment without trial and the English executioner Albert Pierrepoint to bring the terrorists to their senses. The horrific consequences of this was a democracy that survives to the present day, and an IRA that was almost extinct by the 1960s.

That is until Unionist boneheadedness and bigotry, aided and abbeted by the acquiesence of succesive British governments (including bleeding heart Labour administrations), gave them the kiss of life again. Thanks a heap.

 

[Q-Source]

Guess what? Iraq isn't a democracy. And without U.S. intervention, it won't be. The U.S. still may not be successful in turning into a democracy, but it won't go that way any time soon without help. Or do you think the magical democracy fairy will somehow wave her wand and bring peace and freedom to Iraq?

Oh, my god, they are threating to bring HUMAN RIGHTS to get natural resources? My god, the barbarity. Next thing you know, they'll be threating to eliminate world hunger in order to get what they want. Will those evil Americans never stop?

This is the typical opinion of the USA people who think that the only possible way to bring democracy and human rights to other countries is by US intervention.

Ohhh....God bless "America"

Guess what?, there is a whole world outside the USA !

Pathetic !