Blagojevich's Crime: Honesty

[Drudgewire]

You seem to be the one who is defending political corruption. Everyone else here is saying Blago should be prosecuted.

Oh, and make up your mind. The does not go with the phrase "doesn't surprise me in the least". It is an expression of great surprise.

Exactly. For example:

The NBA fixing games belongs in the politics forum?

 

[jberryhill]

Actually, in a way, I have to agree. The concept of Quid Pro Quo is essential to the political process.

Consider the Golden Rule. Even though you are also told to be kind to others without thought of repayment of your kindness, if you know that others follow the Golden Rule, then you can expect your kindnesses will be repaid.

You just can't be explicit about it.

This evening I could have said to my wife, "If I do the dishes, would you walk the dog?" proposing an exchange.

Instead, let's say I do the dishes. Later, when she says, "The dog needs a walk", and I say, "Could you walk the dog? After all, I did the dishes." is that a different situation from the first one?

And this is where Blago is something of a dolt. Of course one gains influence by doing favors to others in politics.

We even consider "loyalty" to be a virtue - and a component of that is to remember favors done and to repay them with further favors. We start this with our kids.... "Well of course you should invite Sally to your birthday party. After all, she invited you to hers last month." We finely calibrate our "gift giving" rituals in accordance with gifts received or anticipated from others. It is an embarrassment to receive a gift from someone to whom you do not have a reciprocal gift. To avoid it, we organize rituals like 'secret Santa', 'gag gifts', or 'no gift' policies in workplaces.

Blago has confused virtue with commerce. And its that debasement of virtue (or some might say explicit acknowledgment of the exchange) that we find offensive.

 

[jberryhill]

True, but Abe was really from Kentucky.

Dang! He forged his birth certificate too!

I suppose next you'll tell me he was born in Kenya.

Everyone knows that Abe Lincoln was born in a log cabin he built with his own hands.

 

[gdnp]

Consider the Golden Rule. Even though you are also told to be kind to others without thought of repayment of your kindness, if you know that others follow the Golden Rule, then you can expect your kindnesses will be repaid.

I think that citizens have the right to expect that politicians will act in the public interest. That is, that when a governor has the power to appoint a US senator that he will appoint someone based on his or her qualifications, not on the basis of his or her willingness to pay. We expect the governor to choose someone who shares a similar political ideology. We expect a governor to choose an ally that he can work with, and who may be able to help out the governor in the future. This is politics and human nature.

Selling the office to the highest bidder, however, is pure corruption.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Dang! He forged his birth certificate too!

I suppose next you'll tell me he was born in Kenya.

Everyone knows that Abe Lincoln was born in a log cabin he built with his own hands.

And as such, the original Log Cabin Republican. Might explain some of his marital troubles, that.

@Galileo

You are just don't like the lewrockwell blog, that's all.

Want to try that again, in English?

 

[INRM]

Blagojevich may have been more shameless and more brazen about placing a Senate seat up to the highest bidder, but nonetheless honesty and shamelessness was not the issue at hand. The issue is that he sold a political office to the highest-bidder -- something which is distinctly un-democratic.

Granted politicians engage in illegal conduct all the time, from taking bribes (a lot of "campaign contributions" verge dangerously on bribery and in many cases probably cross over) and I think this is hugely immoral as well as illegal. This country is supposed to be about us; we the people, not we the ultra-rich lobbyists.

Regardless, despite the fact that I hope Blagojevich will be punished, assuming he has not stepped down, I hope this won't be used as an excuse for the Executive Branch to start spying on all politicians. Because believe you me, you don't want the Executive Branch doing that (How could the Congress effectively be a watchdog to the excesses of the Executive Branch if the Executive Branch knows what they're going to do, and what they're going to look at ahead of time and outmaneuver them?)


INRM

 

[tomwaits]

Gang members commit murder all the time. So, let's not prosecute one who was caught shooting another man in broad daylight. At least he was honest about the murder.

 

[drkitten]

You are just don't like the lewrockwell blog, that's all. Own up to it.

Never read it. I just don't like your line of so-called "reasoning." It's foolish and ignorant.

But it's worse if you're simply mouthing the foolish/ignorant pronouncements of other people, regardless of who they are.

 

[drkitten]

You are just a defender of political corruption, that's all.

Hmmm. By asserting that a public servant committed a crime and should be held accountable for it, I am defending political corruption.

You should try the reality-influenced world, Galileo. You know, the one where words have meanings?

 

[jberryhill]

We expect the governor to choose someone who shares a similar political ideology. We expect a governor to choose an ally that he can work with, and who may be able to help out the governor in the future. This is politics and human nature.

Selling the office to the highest bidder, however, is pure corruption.

That is the line sought to be drawn here. Only going on press reports and only so many hours in a day, my limited understanding with respect to the senate seat is that there are conversations in which he is discussing with others what he might get in return for the seat.

One can construct a continuum of situations from "conducting an auction for the seat" to "expressing hope that this appointment will further cement my good relations with the honorable Mr./Ms. X to the benefit of the people of Illinois".

It does boil down to a line drawing exercise at some point. Had Blago never said anything, but maintained a subjective expectation of baksheesh from the appointee or friends thereof, would Blago be any less "corrupt" from a moral perspective (he'd be fine legally)?

A common failing of politicians, such as Nixon, is confusing their office with themselves personally, and coming to believe "what is good for me is good for my constituents" as a result of that type of grandiose delusion.

Blago certainly seems to be "corrupt", but I think he more likely has some sort of personal disorder or undeveloped sense of moral reasoning. In short, "crazy" seems a more apt label here.

 

[dudalb]

You are just don't like the lewrockwell blog, that's all. Own up to it.

I am not dr.kitten, but I make no secret of my contempt for that pile of woo and nonsense that is the lewrockwell blog.
You know, the Blog that thinks the Confederacy was fighting for freedom and liberty....

 

[dudalb]

The NY Times had an article today that seemed to suggest that the prosecutors may have acted too quickly. No money had changed hands, no deals were consumated, so the worst charges may not stick. I don't know, but I really can't believe that the slime will get off.

His political career is destroyed no matter what, and that is the worst punishment you can give a guy like Blago.

 

[drkitten]

T
It does boil down to a line drawing exercise at some point. Had Blago never said anything, but maintained a subjective expectation of baksheesh from the appointee or friends thereof, would Blago be any less "corrupt" from a moral perspective (he'd be fine legally)?

I think he'd be marginally less corrupt simply because his "subjective expectation" doesn't apply to anyone outside of his own head, and because the Senator-to-be would still be in control of just how far he would be bending his own morals.

The key phrase is "honest services." It's legitimate, both legally and morally, for the governor to want to extract as much as possible for the State of Illinois from the prospective senator. Indeed, that's his job (and that's the Senator's job, too). I think it would be perfectly legitimate, for example, for a prospective senator to try to "bribe" his way into the job with promises of increasing the number of federal jobs in the Chicago area.

Even if one of those jobs happened to be for a friend of the Governor's.

But it's different if the primary job offered is one for the Governor's friend, even if it happens as part of a large jobs package.

Intent is important. It's the difference between murder, manslaughter, and self-defense, for one thing.

 

[jberryhill]

I think he'd be marginally less corrupt simply because his "subjective expectation" doesn't apply to anyone outside of his own head, and because the Senator-to-be would still be in control of just how far he would be bending his own morals.

Has anything surfaced to the effect that he proposed an exchange directly or indirectly with a candidate? (It may well be thus - I'm not following this one closely)

If the situation is that he is expressing those "naughty thoughts" to aides or others not connected to the "Senator-to-be", then the STB remains unaware of the subjective intent and morally unharmed.

The remainder of your post is bang on. Backing up further to basics, a crime in general requires a mens rea (intent) and an actus reus (action). Intent - mens rea - appears to be clearly established. As with conspiracy, my question is what specific "act" was performed.

This is how mafia dons manage to get around the "act" to some extent - If Blago is blowing off to aides, but knows the aides will communicate his desires to others acting on behalf of, or for the benefit of, the STB, then you have the nub of something.

e.g. the don says to his lieutenants, "Rocco has disappointed me greatly, and it will be difficult for me to mourn at his funeral some day, God forbid." Five days later, Rocco is found floating in the East River. These are the types of tape recordings that used to drive prosecutors up the freaking wall, because they can't show that the don had anything to do with Rocco dying, even though everyone knows damned well what happened.

 

[drkitten]

Has anything surfaced to the effect that he proposed an exchange directly or indirectly with a candidate?

I'm not following closely either, but I believe he has (with Candidate 5).

I think that's why his lawyer is screaming about "freedom of speech" and about "illegal wiretaps," because they've got him dead to rights on the actus reus part unless he can somehow make the act itself non-criminal or inadmissible.

 

[Aoidoi]

I do wonder if attempted corruption is technically a criminal act. I mean, the most ridiculous charges and recordings (selling the senate seat, getting editors fired, the children's hospital thing) aren't things he actually succeeded at. But I'm not sure his incompetence excuses his corruption.

And really, what kind of moron hears "I would appreciate it" from the President Elect and thinks that's worthless? As mentioned, doing political favors is how politics works... not by demanding payment for services rendered. Sure the net effect is similar, but outright bribery isn't even arguably legal.

 

[drkitten]

I do wonder if attempted corruption is technically a criminal act. I mean, the most ridiculous charges and recordings (selling the senate seat, getting editors fired, the children's hospital thing) aren't things he actually succeeded at. But I'm not sure his incompetence excuses his corruption.

As a general rule, an attempt to commit a crime is itself a crime.

Also, it should be pointed out that impeachment is not subject to the rules of criminal law, or even of evidence. If the wiretaps were in fact gathered illegally, that would be a bar to their admissibility in court, but not in an impeachment proceeding. Similarly, there is no necessity that an impeachment panel find evidence of actual "acts."

I don't think an impeachment is even appealable to the court system. The governor could be impeached because he wears ugly ties.

 

[drkitten]

I do wonder if attempted corruption is technically a criminal act.

Further to above:

(720 ILCS 5/8‑4) (from Ch. 38, par. 8‑4)
Sec. 8‑4. Attempt.
(a) Elements of the Offense.
A person commits an attempt when, with intent to commit a specific offense, he does any act which constitutes a substantial step toward the commission of that offense.

So, yes, attempted corruption violates 720 ILCS 5/8-4 and is technically a criminal act.

 

[moon1969]

Blagojevich's Crime: Honesty


Posted by James Ostrowski at December 10, 2008 07:13 AM



"So far as I can tell, Rod Blagojevich's crime is honesty.



Most politicians on a daily basis trade political power for favors such as campaign donations, jobs for machine members and contracts for allies.



Want a list of government contractors? Just look at campaign finance records.



I take it that Rod's crime was being honest about it."



http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/024348.html

Blagojevich is as honest as Leonid Nevzlin, Boris Berezovsky, Jack Abramoff and Oleg Deripaska. All are corrupt crooks. In Russia corrupt crooks like Alisher Usmanov don"t go to jail. There is no need to defend criminals and low lifes.

 

[RandFan]

I take it that Rod's crime was being honest about it."

The guy was caught via undercover surveillance. How exactly is that "honest"?

When some organized crime figure is caught on tape ordering the killing of someone is it ok because, hey, he was "honest" about it.

Let's try and make your sows ear lame excuse a silk purse. Let's assume that instead of being caught undercover that Blago held a press conference to announce that the "Senate seat was ****ing golden and you don't give that away" and that he wanted a high paying job in return. Would that make it not a crime?

BTW, this reminds me of the Nixon apologetics, Nixon didn't do anything any other president didn't do. He just got caught?

Oh, well, that makes it ok.

BTW: Blago is entitled to his day in court. That said. He is an a-hole. He is, IMO, a criminal. He was supremely arrogant. I hope to hell he goes to jail.

The guy is a world class prick.

Are we clear?