"Black" is a proper noun, but "white" isn't

[Sideroxylon]

Just asking questions.

 

[d4m10n]

Remind me why what this agency chooses to do or not do should mean anything to our discussion?

Someone upthread said that "capital-W Whiteness-as-an-identity has already been claimed by and is now inextricably associated with neo-Nazis" so I was pointing out the census question on race as a benign counterexample. They use "White" to mean, essentially, of European or Middle Eastern ancestry.

 

[TragicMonkey]

If you are going to divide a group of people into some special Black group then by logic you have to do it with the rest.

Asain, Indian, Aborigini, Maori, Pacific Islanders, European (insert country), slightly brownish others.............

Logic is perfectly fine with p and not-p.

 

[Checkmite]

Someone upthread said that "capital-W Whiteness-as-an-identity has already been claimed by and is now inextricably associated with neo-Nazis" so I was pointing out the census question on race as a benign counterexample. They use "White" to mean, essentially, of European or Middle Eastern ancestry.

So they're not using it as an identity marker then?

You should be able to deduce that what this agency is talking about isn't the same as what people who invoke "capital-W Whiteness-as-an-identity" are talking about, because the latter don't consider Jews, Arabs, and other Middle-Eastern ethnicities, or people of Hispanic ethnicity, to be "White".

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

White people can't have it both ways: they can't simultaneously be the "default" mode for humanity and thus instill everything with systemic racism because everybody who isn't white is "the other"...and at the same time claim to be a distinct ethnicity in themselves. It's one or the other, can't be both. If they want to be White then they have to put themselves on equal footing with every other color. If they want to keep their perception as being the baseline of humanity then they don't get the capitalization.

Who's going to enforce this rule you made up? Curious minds want to know.

 

[d4m10n]

So they're not using it as an identity marker then?

No more than the stories linked in the OP, so far as I can tell. Ancestry influences identity, of course (it would take a lot of chutzpah for a 100% European American woman to identify as Black) but personal identity is someone you have to ask each individual about to see how they identify.

 

[Checkmite]

No more than the stories linked in the OP, so far as I can tell.

But the specific circumstances and contexts of those particular stories isn't really what was being discussed; the discussion is about why a capitalized "Black" can be used sometimes in news reports about African-Americans while a capitalized "White" is not used in stories involving people of various European ancestries.

 

[d4m10n]

But the specific circumstances and contexts of those particular stories isn't really what was being discussed; the discussion is about why a capitalized "Black" can be used sometimes in news reports about African-Americans while a capitalized "White" is not used in stories involving people of various European ancestries.

If your theory is that the newspaper reporters got enough information to know whether the individuals in the story identified as White, Black, Irish American, Afro Caribbean, Chicano, Tejano, etc. and have experienced some degree of inculturation in one of the distinct subcultures represented by some particular ethnic identity, well, I really don't think your typical beat reporter is drilling that deep. More likely they are just going off of surface appearances and maybe a quote or two.

 

[Darat]

I'm still trying to get my head around why lesbians have to be in there when they are gay.

When you catch up to the late 1970s and early 80s let us know.

 

[Checkmite]

If your theory is that the newspaper reporters got enough information to know whether the individuals in the story identified as White, Black, Irish American, Afro Caribbean, Chicano, Tejano, etc. and have experienced some degree of inculturation in one of the distinct subcultures represented by some particular ethnic identity, well, I really don't think your typical beat reporter is drilling that deep. More likely they are just going off of surface appearances and maybe a quote or two.

Again, OP wasn't questioning why this particular article or that particular article uses a capitalized Black. It was making fun of the fact that capitalized Black exists at all.

Why any particular reporter decides to use it in a given article or not isn't part of my argument.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Who's going to enforce this rule you made up? Curious minds want to know.

How do you reconcile the contradiction in a term being at the same time general and specific, without losing the meaning of either?

 

[Olmstead]

It's a federal agency. Of course it they have a style guide. You can view it here: https://www2.census.gov/about/policies/cb-style-guide.pdf

They use The Gregg Reference Manual, except for materials produced for the media which follow the Associated Press Style Guide.

That's good to know. The Gregg Reference Manual has some interesting guidelines on black and white:

[...]

When identifying U.S. citizens or residents as members of a certain ethnic group, use great care in choosing an appropriate term. There is often a good deal of disagreement within the group about which terms are acceptable and which are offensive, so always respect individual preferences if you know what they are. (See 11348.)

a. Use African Americans or Afro-Americans to refer to black people of African ancestry. The terms Negroes and colored people are rarely used today except in the names of long-established organizations (for example, the United Negro College Fund and the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People). Use the term blacks only in a context where you might also refer to whites. Use a term like African Americans (which reflects ethnic ancestry rather than skin color) in a context where you are also referring to other ethnic groups such as Latinos. the votes of Latinos and African Americans (RATHER THAN: the votes of Latinos and blacks')

b. Use Hispanics to refer broadly to people who trace their roots to Latin America or Spain. Use Latinos to refer to people of Latin-American ancestry (that is, from Central or South America). The term Chicanos may be used to refer to people of Mexican ancestry, but some members of this group consider the term offensive; a saler alternative is Mexican Americans. Within the groups designated Hispanic, Latino, or Chicano, some people are white and some black. Therefore, do not use these terms in the same context with white or black. The buying patterns of Hispanics and African Americans (RATHER THAN: the buying patterns of Hispanics and blacks). [...]

c. The terms Anglo-Americans and Anglos are used in some parts of the United States to refer to white people who have an English-speaking background. Are there significant differences in the consumer preferences of Latinos, African Americans, and Anglos? (Note that all three groups are identified here by ethnic ancestry and not by color.) Ideally, the term whites should be used only in a context where you might also refer to blacks. However, in the absence of a more widely accepted term than Anglos or Anglo-Americans, use whites even though other groups are identified by ethnic ancestry in the same context. Are there significant differences in the consumer preferences of Latinos, African Americans, and whites?

[...]

[bolding mine]

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

How do you reconcile the contradiction in a term being at the same time general and specific, without losing the meaning of either?

It's not hard for me. Grammar rules dictate capitalization for nouns and proper nouns. Why add some political judgement?

 

[Checkmite]

It's not hard for me. Grammar rules dictate capitalization for nouns and proper nouns. Why add some political judgement?

Because whether "white" gets to be a proper noun or not is a political question.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Because whether "white" gets to be a proper noun or not is a political question.

No, whether or not it is a proper noun is in how it's used. Just because people don't understand that doesn't make it a political issue.

To go back the the OP question, it's not that white is never a proper noun and black sometimes is, it's merely a matter of choosing what you are using 'white' and 'black' for.

Back in the 60s-70s being Black and proud became a thing. People chose to call Black a group.

It would be capitalized if you said the Whites. Context would tell you if you meant the White family, or the Whites as a group.

If you say the whites you are probably using lower case erroneously.

 

[Checkmite]

No, whether or not it is a proper noun is in how it's used.

I disagree with that; in fact, whether that is or is not the case appears to be the very issue under debate in this thread.

 

[The Atheist]

This would appear to be the topic of the month or something - it is a current topic on Ship of Foollllllls too.

Haha! I bet I know which way that band of curmudgeons swing!

Glad to see both you and them still in good form.

If they want to be White then they have to put themselves on equal footing with every other color.

I'm cool with that.

I find it quite interesting that people with disabilities some time ago changed the perception being labelled by insisting they were people first and foremost and just happen to have a disability.

The alphabet people, BLM and some others want the reverse.

 

[d4m10n]

Grammar rules dictate capitalization for...proper nouns. Why add some political judgement?

You've boiled it down to a simple and crucial question, SG.

Here is the APA guidance on point:

Racial and ethnic groups are designated by proper nouns and are capitalized. Therefore, use “Black” and “White” instead of “black” and “white” (do not use colors to refer to other human groups; doing so is considered pejorative). Likewise, capitalize terms such as “Native American,” “Hispanic,” and so on. Capitalize “Indigenous” and “Aboriginal” whenever they are used. Capitalize “Indigenous People” or “Aboriginal People” when referring to a specific group (e.g., the Indigenous Peoples of Canada), but use lowercase for “people” when describing persons who are Indigenous or Aboriginal (e.g., “the authors were all Indigenous people but belonged to different nations”).

Putting aside my abovementioned quibbles about using colors for people from only two continents (a dichromatic dichotomy with unpleasant undertones) the APA seems to take a straightforward and unbiased approach.

 

[mgidm86]

Do any black people actually care about this or is it just white folk with nothing better to do?

 

[Checkmite]

Do any black people actually care about this or is it just white folk with nothing better to do?

Care enough to complain about Black lately being capitalized sometimes? No that's pretty much just white people.