Bjarne on: Dark Energy, only an illusion.

[MRC_Hans]

This is one of the things that makes doing anything without precise data so difficult.

While everyone agrees on a standard value, the local variations are quite large and certainly not possible to estimate without very in-depth local knowledge.

What surprised me was the location of the absolute gravity sites. I had expected them to be outside and away from any obvious sources of interference, but Vestvolden is in an old military building and the university site appears to be in the Niels Bohr Institute.

This is because the equipment is rather delicate, and also, they want to come back to the site and be able to repeat measurements over a long period of time, since the goal of the whole exercise is to map long-term movements of Earth's crust.

The "FAG" mentioned in the report is determined as the difference between the absolute gravimeter on top of the set-up and the relative gravimeter in the bottom. The reason for this is that to wring the last decimal out of the absolute gravimeter (which works by dropping a weight a certain distance), you need to know the local gradient. However, this is the VERY local gradient, as being inside a building.

Of course, if Bjarne had taken the trouble to read and understand the report before he barged on, he would know all this. But I suppose this is to much to ask of an admirer of the bovine intellect.

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

There is no doubt that light bends near a star or that this is tested and proven
BUT try so hard you can to write me about 20 words about what that curvature of space really is, and how a photon get on that "track"
The truth is you have no idea even how to imaging that.
So what are you really blaming my theory for ?

For being totally incoherent, for ignoring practically ANY physical law, for having no evidence what so ever for it, and last, but not least, for being contradicted by observable facts.

Hans

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I prefer answering that question with questions.

I'd rather you answered it with an answer. How does your theory explain gravitational lensing?

Have you ever seen that space is curving?
Can you imagine that it really curves?

Whether I can imagine it or not is completely irrelevant as to whether it is true or not.

It agrees with both special and general relativity[...]

Not if it doesn't accept curvature of space, it doesn't.

You are a liar, since I never call people in this thread stupid.

You do it in the very post that I'm now replying to. I'll point it out when I get there.

Not that that's the important point - the important point is that if you had any integrity you would offer an apology to those you have said were wrong, as you have now conceded that they were right after all.

But when a person claims: ""(And frankly, I suspect something is not right in your head)"" I believe we both agree that person is attacking me in a flatten way and personal.
Do you feel such dirt is all right SIR?

Actually, no, I think that that's also bad behaviour. But I'm very much of the opinion that "HE did it TOO!" is an excuse that I wouldn't accept from a 5 year old, and certainly not a grown man. "He STARTED it!" falls into the same category.

Who in this thread was the first to call someone liar or ignorant do you think?

I don't care.

If you believe in parallel universes plenty of dimensions hiigs and blab bla bla and tell it to stupid naïve people, do I then have the right to call you liar?

Just noting that this is where you call people stupid in your post.

 

[Paul]

This is because the equipment is rather delicate, and also, they want to come back to the site and be able to repeat measurements over a long period of time, since the goal of the whole exercise is to map long-term movements of Earth's crust...

That's what I was assuming. Although they do seem to be having trouble with some of their stations ending up in people's back gardens.

It does show that, despite Bjarne's arguing about a few µgals, serious science doesn't bother too much about a little local interference. Like a few buildings.

Also, as you say, what Bjarne fails to understand is that what he supposes is the FAG, is really the same as his Domus Vista measurements and merely allows for the absolute gravity to be calculated at the ground.

 

[MRC_Hans]

I prefer answering that question with questions.

Sure. Since you are not able to provide answers.....

Have you ever seen that space is curving?

Yes. Gravitational lensing. We can OBSERVE that light is bended by gravity.

Can you imagine that it really curves?
I prefer the expression “the space density is stretching”

It makes no difference what you call it.

“Curvature” is too clumsy and narrow minded.

See below.

You are a liar, since I never call people in this thread stupid.

No, you call them clumsy and narrow-minded (see above) and compare them with cows.

Bjarne, I have seen carrots smarter than you. .... Did I just call you stupid? NOoooo ....

Hans

 

[Bjarne]

The curvature is space is really the curvature of space!
Photons just follow a geodesic (a "straight" line in curved space).

Curvature is a property of space. There is no "how" unless you are into religion or ignorance.

Imaging a UFO was landed and asks you;

WHAT is a cow?

You would answer; a cow is a cow and because of that it is a cow.

I believe you can see such answer is not only total superficial, it is also empty completely without substance.

As I wrote there are no bended rails up in space.
If I draw a line in the sand, the line itself is without substance.

The sand gives the line substance, and the sand is in fact not bended, - just because the line is.

Now the people in the UFO staff would ask you;

• What is curvature of space made of ?
• Does space have some kind of structure or how can it curve ?
• What is a gravity wave made of?
• Why does a gravity wave move with the speed of light?
• What make curved space move with the speed of light (gravity waves) ?
• Are there any similarities to the expanding Universe / space and gravity waves?
• Is space nothing or something?

PLEASE don’t confuse these innocent visitors.
DON’T tell them that the curvature of space is made of bended rubber rails and such...
I mean what would the rest of the Universe think about us, if you represent the human race like that.

 

[Bjarne]

No, you call them clumsy and narrow-minded (see above)

If scientist, man and beast refuse for example to consider ;
What is curved space really,
How does it happen.
What is the substance of gravity waves etc. etc.. etc.

Yes then such people have chosen to be narrow-minded
Don't take it personal.

and compare them with cows.

Cows do not deserve this.

Photons just follow a geodesic (a "straight" line in curved space).

Amen

How does your theory explain gravitational lensing?

The question is impossible to answer before the answers above had been answered satisfactory..

What happens when space “curves” ?

Space must have some kind of “structure” and that structure must change when space is “curving” right ?

Tell me about how it is possible that space is curving ?
WHAT really happens to space to make that possible ?
If you really is sure that space is curving, then explain more about its nature.

Is the structure or the shape of space changing or WHAT happens to space?

So soon we have THESE answer, and not before, we can begin to speculate HOW a photon know , that there here and here is space "curving" so and so much..

Please do not reply in the empty style; - a cow is a cow because it a cow.

Please give these questions satisfactory objective substance.

 

[Paul]

Imaging a UFO was landed and asks you;

WHAT is a cow?

A perfectly reasonable question for an alien species to ask.

You would answer; a cow is a cow and because of that it is a cow.

I would say "Do you see that creature over there, the black and white one eating grass? That is a cow".

Of course, being alien they may not understand me. They might have taught themselves Russian or Japanese, or they may not understand any earth language.

I believe you can see such answer is not only total superficial, it is also empty completely without substance.

If you gave such an answer, it would be.

Childish cod philosophy aside, it is not the answer any thinking person would give.

As I wrote there are no bended rails up in space.
If I draw a line in the sand, the line itself is without substance.

You're really getting the hang of this stating the obvious aren't you.

The sand gives the line substance,

No it doesn't.

and the sand is in fact not bended, - just because the line is.

That is true, but the sand might be curved and the line would have to be.

Now the people in the UFO staff would ask you;

You think they would come this far and not know the answer, or the pointlessness or the question, already?

 

[Paul]

If scientist, man and beast refuse for example to consider... snip ...Yes then such people have chosen to be narrow-minded

Scientists may consider such things, if it is within their field, but most ordinary people and all beasts neither know nor care about the curvature of spacetime.

Don't take it personal.

That was a stupid thing to say, don't take it personally.

Amen

Don't pretend that you understand that, your other posts prove otherwise.

The question is impossible to answer before the answers above had been answered satisfactory..

Why should it be impossible for your GR re-writing new theory to answer the question?

What happens when space “curves”... etc etc etc

http://einstein.stanford.edu/SPACETIME/spacetime-index.html

So soon we have THESE answer, and not before, we can begin to speculate HOW a photon know , that there here and here is space "curving" so and so much..

Anthropomorphising elementary particles won't help.

Please do not reply in the empty style; - a cow is a cow because it a cow.

A cow is a cow because cow is the name we give the thing that we call a cow.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Of course, being alien they may not understand me. They might have taught themselves Russian or Japanese, or they may not understand any earth language.

Most likely Mandarin or English, as the former is the first language of the most human beings, and the latter is the one that is the most widely-spoken.

 

[Reality Check]

How does your new theory explain the deflection of light by the Sun

Imaging a UFO was landed and asks you;

WHAT is a cow?

You would answer; a cow is a cow and because of that it is a cow.

No: I would not. I woudl say that a cow is a thing with certain properties.

Likewise space is a thing with certain properties, e.g. curvature.

[sarcasm]
Bjarne:Imaging a UFO was landed and asks you: WHAT is a cow?
You would answer: it is a big blue thing except whan I want it it be a liitle red thing but I really have no idea what it is except on Tuesdays according to cow logic. Its space deoes stuff but I cannot say what except it stetches, contracts and dances the fandango. You cannot measure it because rulers contract, time dilates and space wobbles.
[/sarcasm]

And the question you are still unable to answer: How does your new theory explain the deflection of light by the Sun?
First asked 9 Feb 2011​

Bjarne's completely debunked "central gravity" ​

 

[Bjarne]

And the question you are still unable to answer:

Ahhh not so sure.....

Space is absorbed by matter and therefore it "curves"

The funny thing is only that photons know that space here and there are lacking so and so much, and therefore curving so and so much.

How the know that?

Hmmmmm they are maybe not so stupid as you believe.

Or how do you believe they know that space curves?

 

[Reality Check]

Ahhh not so sure.....

Space is absorbed by matter and therefore it "curves"

The funny thing is only that photons know that space here and there are lacking so and so much, and therefore curving so and so much.

How the know that?

Hmmmmm they are maybe not so stupid as you believe.

Or how do you believe they know that space curves?

More gibberish.
Try answering the actual question instead of spouting gibberish:
How does your new theory explain the deflection of light by the Sun?
First asked 9 Feb 2011

Give the actual numbers, e.g. how much is light from a star deflected by the Sun.

Bjarne's completely debunked "central gravity" ​

As for your question: I already answered it.
It is simple enough: we observe photons acting as if space-time is curved so we believe that space-time is curved.

 

[Paul]

Ahhh not so sure.....

Yes, very sure.

Space is absorbed by matter and therefore it "curves"

Melons are all named Stanley and Vogons disintegrated my Llama.

See, I can say things too. Now, unless you are lying, you will be able to demonstrate what you say.

The funny thing is only that photons know that space here and there are lacking so and so much, and therefore curving so and so much

Anthropomorphising elementary particles won't help.

How the know that?

They don't, they have no consciousness.

Hmmmmm they are maybe not so stupid as you believe.

I have no opinion on the intellectual capacity of photons. The fact that you do is a poor reflection on you capacity for reasonable cognition.

Or how do you believe they know that space curves?

We're not the ones playing juvenile word games to avoid defending our pet ideas.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

It is simple enough: we observe photons acting as if space-time is curved so we believe that space-time is curved.

And the thing that's so cool about it is that gravitational lensing was predicted 54 years before it was observed. It's not something that people saw and then tried to explain, it's something that people said "well, if x is true, then we should be able to observe y" and then, half a century later, y was observed.

Isn't science great?

 

[MRC_Hans]

Imaging a UFO was landed and asks you;

WHAT is a cow?

You would answer; a cow is a cow and because of that it is a cow.

I certainly would not answer that. I would answer that a cow is a large herbivore, used as a domisitc animal for milk and meat, and I would tell them that a cow is like it is because it first evolved, and later man domisticated it and bred it to what it is today.

I believe you can see such answer is not only total superficial, it is also empty completely without substance.

Ut is also completeely irrelvant and you should get out of the habit of putting words in other people's mouths.

As I wrote there are no bended rails up in space.

And that means what?

If I draw a line in the sand, the line itself is without substance.

The sand gives the line substance, and the sand is in fact not bended, - just because the line is

The sand is medium, the line is data.

Now the people in the UFO staff would ask you;

• What is curvature of space made of ?
• Does space have some kind of structure or how can it curve ?
• What is a gravity wave made of?
• Why does a gravity wave move with the speed of light?
• What make curved space move with the speed of light (gravity waves) ?
• Are there any similarities to the expanding Universe / space and gravity waves?
• Is space nothing or something?

PLEASE don’t confuse these innocent visitors.

That is all very nice and philosophical. The problem is, Bjarne, that YOU don't have any answers to those questions. Only imagined nonsense.

DON’T tell them that the curvature of space is made of bended rubber rails and such...
I mean what would the rest of the Universe think about us, if you represent the human race like that.

You are the one providing stupid nonsense here, not I.

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

If scientist, man and beast refuse for example to consider ;
What is curved space really,
How does it happen.
What is the substance of gravity waves etc. etc.. etc.

That we don't know for sure, but thousands of serious scientists have been working on it for over a century, and we have some pretty good theories, which seem to be confirmed by observation. We will continue to do serious research till we find out.

Yes then such people have chosen to be narrow-minded
Don't take it personal.

Well you can chose if you will take this personally:

A fool is someone who has no education, cannot do serious research, and doesn't understand even simple high-school math, but still thinks his personal fantasies are better than the hard worl of thousands of real scientist.

What happens when space “curves” ?

We know what happens.

Space must have some kind of “structure” and that structure must change when space is “curving” right ?

Seriously, Bjarne, you just had perhaps a spark of insight when you mentioned the line in the sand, above. Now try to USE it:

The line was not the substance, and the sand did not curve.

So why must space have a substance to curve?

Please give these questions satisfactory objective substance.

Bjarne, maybe, just maybe, if YOU started to give YOUR answers just a bit of substance, then someone might start respecting you enough to take the trouble to give YOU any substantial answers. (Hint: Don't mention cows again, even once)

.. You know, you get what you give.

Hans

 

[Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Bjarne If scientist, man and beast refuse for example to consider ;
What is curved space really,
How does it happen.
What is the substance of gravity waves etc. etc.. etc.
Originally Posted by Hans
That we don't know for sure, but thousands of serious scientists have been working on it for over a century, and we have some pretty good theories, which seem to be confirmed by observation. We will continue to do serious research till we find out.

Fine then we both agree none of us really know what “curved space “really is.

Due to the fact that you don’t know what curved space really is, you also can not know how a photon follows “something” that you really don’t know what is, right ?

So the conclusion is: Yes space deforms round a gravitionel field, we don’t know exactly what it happens with space, and hence we also don’t know how a photon “know” the difference between what we “call” the curvature of space .

I mean exactly like the word; “cow”, - not explain an alien what a cow really is. In the same way we also don’t know what “curved space” really is, before we at least have much more information, (exactly like I can see you know a lot about cows. )

Hence we can not say that we know how a photon (we not exactly know what is) follows something we don't know (exactly) what really is.

I mean if an alien know what a cowboy is but he don’t know what a cow is (and much less what a photon really is). - Then I think we both agree that it gives little sense to the alien what it really means when you say: the cowboy is ridding a cow.

And much less if you would say the photon is ridding a cow.

So when you say the photon is ridding the curved space, I think there is some truth about it, but none of us really know what a photon or curved space is, right?

Well you can chose if you will take this personally:
A fool is someone who has no education, cannot do serious research, and doesn't understand even simple high-school math, but still thinks his personal fantasies are better than the hard worl of thousands of real scientist.

Ooohh no… it is long ago I took anything personal.
I can see you again and again is misjudging why I sometimes used words like silly and stupid etc.
There are too much concrete in “science” even though much only is only guessing.
We MUST ALL believe in the majorities guessing.
We shall NOT even try to think our self (before we are professors)
Because “we” have not been enough educated hence we MUST be wrong.
Also even though conclusions are obviously illogical, contradictions, and many time completely without down to earth connection.

Few are those who see with their own eyes and feel with their own hearts.
Albert Einstein

Why?
Because the majority does all they can to flatten those that disagree with "science".
Science has become a fanatic intolerant a religion.
http://ing.dk/artikel/23965-naturvi...kke-laengere-videnskab-men-er-blevet-religion
http://ing.dk/artikel/54168-gaetterier-er-ikke-en-serioes-videnskab?highlight=ingeni%F8ren
If you are one of the “sect member” – don’t take it personal, - just take this critic of science as a help to you, before you get lost in the 11th fantasy dimension or disappear to a parallel Universe, or before alien from a dark galaxy would capture you.

Now a day it is impossible to know where science will bring you. And who know, maybe it is like LSD, maybe it impossible to come down (to reality) again (when the concrete brainwash first is harden)

 

[Paul]

Fine then we both agree none of us really know what “curved space “really is.

Then how is your idea of any use to anyone when it doesn't offer the same level of mathematical, experimental and predictive evidence of the established theories.

Due to the fact that you don’t know what curved space really is, you also can not know how a photon follows “something” that you really don’t know what is, right ?

The photon follows a path which can be predicted and observed. What we know, what was predicted, and what is explained by current theory are consistent.

How do you explain anything?

So the conclusion is: Yes space deforms round a gravitionel field,

No, curved spacetime causes what we call gravity.

we don’t know exactly what it happens with space

And it's the job of science to try and find the answers. Why do you have such a problem with science not currently knowing everything?

and hence we also don’t know how a photon “know” the difference between what we “call” the curvature of space and not (so much) curved space

Photons don't know anything about spacetime like marbles don't know anything about bowling balls.

I mean exactly like the word; “cow”, - not explain an alien what a cow really is.

If you think curvature of spacetime is less descriptive than cow, you have a lot to learn.

Hence we can not say that we know how a photon (we not exactly know what is) follows something we don't know (exactly) what really is

Is there a point to all this torturing of the language?

I mean if an alien know what a cowboy is but he don’t know what a cow is (and much less what a photon really is). - Then I think we both agree that it gives little sense to the alien what it really means when you say: the cowboy is ridding a cow.

That is a really silly example and certainly does not follow.

If you know what a cowboy is and you are told that they are riding a cow, then you know quite a few things about a cow.

I can see you again and again is misjudging why I sometimes used words like silly and stupid etc.

There you go lying again.

There are too much concrete in “science” even though much only is only guessing.

You really don't know much about science, do you?

We MUST ALL believe in the majorities guessing.

No one must believe anyones guesses.

We shall NOT even try to think or self (before we are professors)

Thinking is fine. It is, in fact, positively encouraged. Declarations of genius without foundation however, are greeted with suspicion and requests for evidence.

Because “we” have not been so enough educated hence we MUST be wrong

Quite often a lack of education leads to mistakes or assumptions and these are left unchallenged to form the basis for erroneous ideas.

Why?
Because the majority does all they can to flatten those that disagree with "science".

You have obviously not been taking much interest in actual science if you believe that.

Science is under unprecedented attacks from ignorance, religious zealotry, short sighted financial consideration and general cultural anaesthesia.

Science has become a fanatic intolerant a religion.

Two articles of opinion, the newest of which is 7½ years old, by someone who seems to have a problem with Danish astronomy is hardly a convincing argument.

 

[Bjarne]

Then how is your idea of any use to anyone when it doesn't offer the same level of mathematical, experimental and predictive evidence of the established theories.
I mean we can both agree that a cow is a cow even though no one of us really knows what it is.

The question is not only whether space curves or not, or if a better expression should be used, - but the question rather is we anyway do not understand what happens, when it "urves" or what ever it does.

So how can we judge which expression is the most suitable.

It could be true that space curves because it is absorbed by matter, could't it ?

This would also bring light to a better expression of gravity waves, which then only is released contracted space.

The photon follows a path which can be predicted and observed.

Cows does that too.
But we don’t know exactly why.
Have you heard about cow-path, there are plenty of them, and even after a farmer field have been ploughed cows will made the same path again and again..

No, curved spacetime causes what we call gravity.

“Space-time” is only a superficial and almost empty expression for something we almost not really have understood..

Photons don't know anything about spacetime like marbles don't know anything about bowling balls.

So you still believe there are some kinds of invisible rails in space.