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Merged Bitcoin - Part 3

dirtywick said:
i didn't say it was the primary use for crypto, i said i assumed a significant portion of the 2-3% of people using it for goods and services are using it to gamble. which again, if you're going to quote me and be rude about it, read a little closer. it's a few posts up if you need to reread it.
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Well, if you are going to argue about the meaning of "significant portion" . . . .
 
dirtywick said:
??? their only asset? what else is there to the company? it’s a bitcoin treasury
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That doesn't mean that they are using bitcoin as collateral against their bonds. I'm pretty sure that they haven't set aside any bitcoins to pay out bond holders if the company gets into trouble. Or do you mean something different when you say "collateral"?
 
I was intrigued by the claim that Bitcoin is no longer usable as a currency because of the high transaction times. It turns out that this may have been the case a year ago, but is no longer so.

According to ycharts.com confirmation times are down from 149.87 last year to about 7.263 today. I haven't been able find out what unit this is, but I assume it is seconds, Periodically, the value has been much higher. For instance in 2023 there was a brief period when the value was 25809.

If the unit is in seconds, 7 seconds is a long time to wait for a transaction to go through, but not impossibly long. You can accept long wait times when buying high-value assets (like housing, or drugs), but it is a serious obstacle for the use in a super market. I wonder how the transaction times influence the use of online casinos.

In El Salvador the Bitcoin involvement is gradually being wound down, but transaction times do not seem to be a reason. Criminals' hacking stealing the contents of people's Chivo wallets has eroded confidence in Bitcoin, according to Bitcoin in El SalvadorWP
 
steenkh said:
I was intrigued by the claim that Bitcoin is no longer usable as a currency because of the high transaction times. It turns out that this may have been the case a year ago, but is no longer so.

According to ycharts.com confirmation times are down from 149.87 last year to about 7.263 today. I haven't been able find out what unit this is, but I assume it is seconds.
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It is actually minutes. It takes up to 10 minutes for your transaction to get its first confirmation on the blockchain (longer if you don't offer a decent transaction fee). Many recipients would prefer to see up to 6 confirmations before accepting that the transaction won't be erased by a blockchain fork. This makes bitcoin unsuitable for use in a supermarket (even if they accepted bitcoin) but there would be no problem paying bills to those vendors that accepted bitcoin.

As for online casinos, you are depositing the bitcoins into an account held at the casino. Once the deposit has had the required number of confirmations (may take an hour or more), you can gamble away. If you are not gambling with a reputable online casino then getting funds transferred from your account back into your bitcoin wallet may be a bit iffy.
 
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psionl0 said:
That doesn't mean that they are using bitcoin as collateral against their bonds. I'm pretty sure that they haven't set aside any bitcoins to pay out bond holders if the company gets into trouble. Or do you mean something different when you say "collateral"?
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why are you pretty sure? the crypto treasury model is that they own crypto, they have no other assets and no other source of income other than crypto will be worth more when the bond comes due.

here's yet another article about the crypto treasury model and how it works

Crypto hoarders turn to share buybacks in push to boost falling stock…

archived 23 Sep 2025 05:05:48 UTC
archive.ph archive.ph

But the copycat craze is showing signs of losing steam. Most crypto treasury companies are lossmaking or simply shell vehicles, with executives’ and investors’ belief in the value of their tokens being the sole driving force for share price gains.
Biotech company 180 Life Sciences changed its name to ETHZilla last month and began loading up on ether tokens. Its shares have sunk 76 per cent from their August peak and the company is valued at $416mn, despite holding about $460mn worth of ether.
Last week, ETHZilla raised $80mn in debt collateralised against its ether holdings from Cumberland DRW, the crypto arm of Don Wilson’s market maker DRW. It will use the funds to purchase its own shares as part of its $250mn buyback plan.
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"collateralised" since you need to see the term

coincentral.com

Crypto Treasury Trend Faces Decline as Companies Shift Strategies - CoinCentral

Crypto treasury firms are turning to stock buybacks and borrowed funds as their cryptocurrency holdings underperform.
coincentral.com coincentral.com

  • Falling stock prices are forcing companies to use crypto holdings as collateral for debt to repurchase their shares.
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anyway, i'm moving on from the semantic argument here. my original point before this ridiculous derail is that these companies don't have a busuiness model. they've acquired the bitcoin, now what? how do they generate income to repay their debts? the bitcoin doesn't do anything to earn, they've got a lot an asset that's generating nothing. it's why they're failing, it's a pyramid scheme.
 
psionl0 said:
It is actually minutes. It takes up to 10 minutes for your transaction to get its first confirmation on the blockchain (longer if you don't offer a decent transaction fee). Many recipients would prefer to see up to 6 confirmations before accepting that the transaction won't be erased by a blockchain fork. This makes bitcoin unsuitable for use in a supermarket (even if they accepted bitcoin) but there would be no problem paying bills to those vendors that accepted bitcoin.
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In the early days there was a barbershop that accepted Bitcoins, but I guess they must have given that up a long time ago.
 
psionl0 said:
Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the company will redeem their bonds with bitcoin if they get into trouble.
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if they can’t raise new investment through selling even more bonds or diluting the stock, they have no other means of income.

like, what is a bitcoin treasury company doing if it’s selling off its only reason to exist even do? how do they buy more bitcoin to add to the treasury if they have to sell bitcoin to pay their debts they raised to buy bitcoin? it’s an insane business model until they solve what to do with the bitcoin once you have it

 
then they issue more bonds and dilute the stock to buy more at a higher price until they run out of new investors. if they start selling the price drops, the whole thing collapses. if they can’t find new investors, the whole thing collapses.
 
dirtywick said:
then they issue more bonds and dilute the stock to buy more at a higher price until they run out of new investors. if they start selling the price drops, the whole thing collapses. if they can’t find new investors, the whole thing collapses.
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And they all lived happily ever after.
 
dirtywick said:
i didn't say it was the primary use for crypto, i said i assumed a significant portion of the 2-3% of people using it for goods and services are using it to gamble. which again, if you're going to quote me and be rude about it, read a little closer. it's a few posts up if you need to reread it.
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And the 97% to 98% who aren't using it for goods and services are speculating with it, which means gambling. Asking you for the exact percentage of the 2%-3% that should be added to the 97% to 98% seems a little pointless
 
dirtywick said:
not the bottom of the pyramid. they lose
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Yeah. The pool of people willing to invest in crypto or crypto investment companies will run dry - any day now. :rolleyes:

Incidentally, I noticed that you tried to sneak in the word "pyramid" even though it has been comprehensively been proven to be a lie to describe cryptos that way.
 
psionl0 said:
Yeah. The pool of people willing to invest in crypto or crypto investment companies will run dry - any day now. :rolleyes:

Incidentally, I noticed that you tried to sneak in the word "pyramid" even though it has been comprehensively been proven to be a lie to describe cryptos that way.
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well, no it hasn’t lol but i’m not rehashing that with you again, wasn’t enjoyable or productive the first time around.

regardless, we are talking specifically about bitcoin treasury companies. those are a pyramid scheme, and this video breaks that down in detail as to why

 
dirtywick said:
regardless, we are talking specifically about bitcoin treasury companies.
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I don't know if bitcoin treasury companies are pyramids or not but I don't see any MLM aspects there. That and the fact that you say they are leads me to conclude that they are not. (Finding somebody on YouTube who says they are doesn't change anything).
 
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