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Merged Bitcoin - Part 3

psionl0 said:
:newlol

Tell me what the agreed intrinsic value of gold is if this is so well established.
A house is a different thing altogether. It is easy enough to calculate the cost of adding a house to a property. But this may not be how much value the house adds to the price of the property. In extreme cases, a developer might consider that the house reduces the value of the property because of the cost of removing the house to build a more profitable structure. Of course, other buyers may be willing to offer more for the property to just live in the house. This gives the house a "market value" rather than an "intrinsic value".
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Observe, if you will, how @psionl0 ignores completely the part about why gold is an exception, basis precisely its usage. He can't have forgotten, it was recent enough, our discussion, and very detailed, including a brief sidebar into the nature of the special pleading fallacy itself.

At this point, to say this again, would, in anyone else, have been just lying. In his case, it seems to be delusion. His mind, otherwise fully functional, simply blocks from him anything that shows up unfavorably his bizarre object of devotion, bitcoin.

----------

Like I said, @psionl0 . No offense intended. And I'm done engaging with your delusion, given the bizarre experience I've had of engaging with it in the course of our exchange, fully documented right there.

Just, when I see you gasligjting someone else, then, if it catches my eye, then I'll set the record straight. For their benefit. Happy to discuss this with them, and clarify further, if they wish.

Again, no put-down intended. Fully acknowledge your technical knowledge of btc, and happy to benefit from such of it as is not colored over by your delusion.

You believe what you want, I've no issues.

Over and out.
 
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Chanakya said:
Observe, if you will, how @psionl0 ignores completely the part about why gold is an exception, basis precisely its usage.
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"basis precisely its usage"???
What are you saying now? That gold doesn't have intrinsic value? That its intrinsic value can't be measured or something else entirely? And why no response to the house part?

And don't give another 1000 word essay that doesn't define your terms succinctly. (If you have given a succinct definition of "intrinsic value" then please repeat it so I don't have to scour thousands of word to find it).
 
Gold is an exception because of its aura of wealth - which is not real: it's a story told by those who want to get rich of speculating with it.

If the price was based on its value as a commodity, it would be a question of supply/demand in the industries that make use of it.
But this is skewed all out of proportion because precious metals are so cheap to store, unlike other commodities, making them easy to speculate with and to hoard for price manipulation.
 
dirtywick said:
www.mundodeportivo.com

Argentina’s President Javier Milei murders millions of dollars with $LIBRA rugpull—Top Memes!

Memecoiners just witnessed what many are calling “the biggest rugpull in history.” Argentina’s newly elected President, Javier Milei, sent the crypto world into a
www.mundodeportivo.com www.mundodeportivo.com

in what seems like an inevitability, argentine president and libertarian darling javier milei involved in influencer style crypto scam
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it's not.
the South Sea Bubble was way bigger.

en.wikipedia.org

South Sea Company - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
The Great Zaganza said:
Gold is an exception because of its aura of wealth - which is not real: it's a story told by those who want to get rich of speculating with it.

If the price was based on its value as a commodity, it would be a question of supply/demand in the industries that make use of it.
But this is skewed all out of proportion because precious metals are so cheap to store, unlike other commodities, making them easy to speculate with and to hoard for price manipulation.
Click to expand...
Not unlike bitcoin.
 
psionl0 said:
Not unlike bitcoin.
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Guess you could make it work by putting a tax for every Bitcoin that isn't used in a real-life economic transaction for a certain amount of time - otherwise you just have an instrument for complete currency manipulation.
 
well i don’t know much about argentina but they seem to be a little more upset about it then when trump did the same thing.

of course there’s the fun part about how much the libertarian crypto right loves milei and he was a shining example of their policies in action turning out to be a huge fraud.

but libertarianism is built on fraud. so no surprise to anyone but them
 
The Great Zaganza said:
Gold is an exception because of its aura of wealth - which is not real: it's a story told by those who want to get rich of speculating with it.

If the price was based on its value as a commodity, it would be a question of supply/demand in the industries that make use of it.
But this is skewed all out of proportion because precious metals are so cheap to store, unlike other commodities, making them easy to speculate with and to hoard for price manipulation.
Click to expand...

Is gold an exception in terms of having an intrinsic value by virtue of its industrial and other utility? The answer is No.

Like everything else, and starting from the perspective of who it is is doing the valuation, we can list out the uses that gold can be put to, and then assign a monetary value for such. That’s straightforward, in theory.

However, gold is …well, gold. For millennia it has been a medium of exchange, and a store of wealth. And its value derived from these is so much more than its value on account of its industrial and other uses insignificant, that its intrinsic value, derived as a function of its actual utility (other than for storing and exchanging value) is moot. No company is likely to take the trouble to carry out the valuation of gold specifically from the perspective of industrial use, ever, given that this is sure to fall well short of its actual price, and therefore irrelevant.

And gold is, in this sense, an exception, well, precisely because it is an exception, basis history, basis its role as money, all of that, across literally thousands of years.


psionl0 said:
Not unlike bitcoin.
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Haha, no, entirely unlike bitcoin. As already discussed here, not long back.

That gold is an exception is fact. Although a bubble priced well above its utility-intrinsic value, that gold is a bubble that has stood the test of time, is fact.

Not everything that is a bubble so stands the test of time. Cowries did not. Tulips did not.

Might Bitcoin? No one can divine the future, obviously: but the burden of proof is squarely on the side that is making the claim that Bitcoin will stand the test of time, and prove to be an exception like gold.

This has already been discussed, in some detail, in recent posts. However, @psionIO’s delusion about BTC keeps him from seeing his bizarre object of devotion as a bubble, and lacking in intrinsic worth. Despite such being very clearly discussed and explained.

Well, his beliefs and his delusions are his business, and he’s welcome to them. But everyone just make sure he doesn’t succeed in gaslighting you over this elementary matter.
 
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well we’ll see what happens. i would hope the massive amounts of scams and fraud featuring bitcoin and other crypto would turn enough people off. but the fomo is pretty strong, particularly with a corrupt presidency bullish on the stuff. for non-nefarious reasons surely
 
The Great Zaganza said:
Guess you could make it work by putting a tax for every Bitcoin that isn't used in a real-life economic transaction for a certain amount of time - otherwise you just have an instrument for complete currency manipulation.
Click to expand...
Not unlike gold.

In more detail, I was only discussing the highlighted part of your answer and not the entire pros and cons of using bitcoin as a currency. The tax you are suggesting is known as "demurrage" and since gold isn't taxed this way, it is also subject to price manipulation. One major difference I suppose is that the bulk of gold reserves are in government hands instead of private hands.
 
Chanakya said:
Is gold an exception in terms of having an intrinsic value by virtue of its industrial and other utility? The answer is No.
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This is the response to a post that was stating the exact opposite. It is a classic example of @Chanakya's inability to comprehend what he is reading and therefore going off in an unrelated tangent in their response.

Chanakya said:
Haha, no, entirely unlike bitcoin. As already discussed here, not long back.

That gold is an exception is fact. Although a bubble priced well above its utility-intrinsic value, that gold is a bubble that has stood the test of time, is fact.

Not everything that is a bubble so stands the test of time. Cowries did not. Tulips did not.

Might Bitcoin? No one can divine the future, obviously: but the burden of proof is squarely on the side that is making the claim that Bitcoin will stand the test of time, and prove to be an exception like gold.

This has already been discussed, in some detail, in recent posts. However, @psionIO’s delusion about BTC keeps him from seeing his bizarre object of devotion as a bubble, and lacking in intrinsic worth. Despite such being very clearly discussed and explained.

Well, his beliefs and his delusions are his business, and he’s welcome to them. But everyone just make sure he doesn’t succeed in gaslighting you over this elementary matter.
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This is a shorter example of the many long rambling posts that @Chanakya has written that fails to clarify any issues. It is littered with false assumptions and poor definitions. Defining all speculation as a "bubble" is one such example.

The false claim that I "believe" that bitcoin will never fail is another. It is one that @Chanakya will repeat continuously because they are determined to destroy me. Why? Because I dared to disagree with their assertion that "intrinsic value" is a well defined concept. Pathetic!
 
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Coffeezilla interviews Hayden Davis (Kelsier) one of the big four creators of $LIBRA along with Julian Peh (Kip Protocol), Mauricio Novelli (Tech Forum Argentina) and Manuel Godoy (Tech Forum Argentina).

It was endorsed by Javier Milei on February 14th, 2025.

"I interviewed Hayden trying to figure out what happened. In the process he admitted to the LIBRA team sniping the LAUNCH OF LIBRA, and the MELANIA team sniping the LAUNCH OF MELANIA. Absolutely wild."

 
psionl0 said:
...@Chanakya ...are determined to destroy me...
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They're not. Not outside of your weird delusions, they're really, really not.


Andy_Ross said:
Coffeezilla interviews Hayden Davis (Kelsier) one of the big four creators of $LIBRA along with Julian Peh (Kip Protocol), Mauricio Novelli (Tech Forum Argentina) and Manuel Godoy (Tech Forum Argentina).

It was endorsed by Javier Milei on February 14th, 2025.

"I interviewed Hayden trying to figure out what happened. In the process he admitted to the LIBRA team sniping the LAUNCH OF LIBRA, and the MELANIA team sniping the LAUNCH OF MELANIA. Absolutely wild."

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◊◊◊◊.

I kind of speed-read through that one, or speed-listened through, but it made for ...a very interesting listen. Just underlines how essentially, fundamentally dodgy are these things, and everyone that's associated with them.

(Leaving off at around the halfway mark for now. It's an interesting listen, and I'd like to finish speed-listening to the rest later when I've time.)

Incidentally: They keep talking about "sniping", and I didn't know what that means. So I looked it up. For anyone else that might be interested to listen in, and that, like me, might not know what sniping is, well, it's basically using automated strategies and running bots to leverage inefficiencies across markets, and so taking advantage of arbitrage opportunities. (Kind of the crypto equivalent of quant trading, I suppose?) See here, here, and here: just some links that came up in a quick search, that speak about what sniping is.

There's one thing I didn't get, though. There's a great deal that's obviously dodgy about all of this. Certainly the insider trading. Certainly the lack of the regulations in crypto, vis-a-vis stock markets. Certainly the assumption by the crypto traders and crypto "organizers" that they're entitled to do all of that, and that it's good and right that crypto shouldn't be subject to the regulations that stock markets are governed by. And certainly the underlying ...dodginess of these coin things in general, that becomes completely evident from this interview, with even the "organizers" treating the whole thing like a "casino", that might well drop to zero any day, and just cash in as long as it doesn't. ...I'm saying, I'm emphasizing, I'm no supporter of these dodgy things, at all: but at a conceptual level what I don't get is, why "sniping" itself is seen as dodgy. To me it seems just the equivalent of quants, and a legitimate way to make money off of inefficiencies and arbitrage openings: a way for operators to make money, and also, in the process, larger picture, kind of help make markets more efficient, by clearing out the inefficiencies.

If there's anyone here that understands sniping in crypto, and can clearly explain to me why that's a dodgy exercise, in and of itself, then that would be appreciated.
 
If you are one of the creators of the coin and you have a huge reserve of coins before it's released then you can manipulate the market to maximise your profits from your sniping.
He admits to it in the interview.
 
most of these guys blame snipers when it’s just them rugging, relying on anonymity to say we don’t know who they were but it wasn’t us. milei had no idea what he was getting into. these are all common excuses from crypto scams that they all use when caught red handed.
 
Andy_Ross said:
If you are one of the creators of the coin and you have a huge reserve of coins before it's released then you can manipulate the market to maximise your profits from your sniping.
He admits to it in the interview.
Click to expand...

Ah ok. You seem to be suggesting that this "sniping" was done not to take advantage of arbitrage opportunities arising out of market inefficiencies --- which seems akin to quant trades, and seems legitimate --- but specifically in order to artificially keep prices high.

If that's what you're suggesting, then sure, I agree. It's underhand, and it would be illegal in stock markets. And if it is not be illegal in crypto, then it should be. ...And it kind of ties in with the 5 mil that the trader, Dave, lost, and was refunded from "project funds".

(Maybe the interview does tie this in specifically. If so I must have missed it. Like I said, I was speed-watching, and in any case am only halfway through.)
 
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